#but how are you gonna get the full context of that if the story refuses to give you the context you had in the original

[mishkakagehishka]

I just . Repeating "characters are tools" you end up erasing so much about arashi's character and motivations and interactions with other characters if you avoid using her pronouns aka avoid showing she's transgender. It's on the same level of frustration with the translators i had when i saw they had Mika speaking standard English, there's a LOT that gets lost if you don't show those little things.

[alatismeni-theitsa]

In "KAOS" nothing is anything, and everything is wrong

Two disclaimers: I am no stranger to modern art, and I have no issue with queerness in shows, or in my own mythology (I'm Greek). I am also aware that KAOS is a comedy. It's in the gutter of British comedy, but still part of the genre. At least I laughed every time they said "Oh God!". I don't believe this is the same person who wrote the great and amusing "End of the F**king World"! The premise of "The gods in our modern world" appeals to me a lot, so that wasn't my problem either. My general issue with KAOS is its horrible delivery, bad writing, and piss-poor Greek representation.

This is gonna be long and full of stupid gifs, so sit comfortably, grab a coffee or some popcorn and... pame!

The "ILoveGreekMythology" Kid

Art without context is just a pretty thing to look at. Most of the time, this context can be found within the art piece itself, as the artist has taken care to weave it in. KAOS refuses to connect itself to any context besides the names and a few vague powers. It aims to exist outside of those "boring old stories of the Greek myth" and be entirely "fresh and modern". Something impossible when the entire show and the meanings are based on ancient recorded material. In other words, KAOS is so meta that it ends up being nothing. KAOS cannot stand on its own because you need more than the viewers being familiar with the Greek myth basics to pull such a show off.

KAOS tells us "See? I know all the names of the gods, and what they did, and I know all the locations, so I am qualified to tackle this". More or less like any Western kid who takes all their knowledge from PJO and Marvel and proceeds to unironically hate ancient deities and make a girlboss out of Medusa.

Here's a Greek word for you guys, ημιμάθεια, meaning "half-knowledge". Α Greek saying very well declares "Half-knowledge is worse than no knowledge". The confidence of thinking you know enough often leads you to grave mistakes whereas the humility of not knowing prevents you from touching shit that you shouldn't. When you have no idea what the original myth is trying to say and spit on its meaning, knowing a few names and locations is just smoke and mirrors. I don't believe the audience fell for that.

And don't get me started on the "subversions". A good subversion is intriguing and thought-provoking. In KAOS, every twist was hollow - Greek myth related or otherwise.

"What if Euridice doesn't love Orpheus?" I don't know, babe. What if??? What was the point of that? What did you show us? That women's stories are dominated by men and men don't listen to women, perhaps? And you chose to twist... the love story of Orpheus and Euridice to show this?? One of the best and most tragic love stories Greek mythology has to offer?? You just mocked the myth, you didn't make anything profound out of it.

The Greek Stuff (Nothing salvageable)

I was surprised to see they had a Consulting Producer (Georgia Christou) and an Assistant Script Editor (Isabella Yianni) who happen to be Greek. And I stress that because those people probably weren't hired or utilized for being Greek. We are not sure they were involved in cultural decisions because we have no evidence and because shows with no Greek elements can have more Greeks than that on their staff.

Okay, perhaps they took 5 seconds to ask Isabella about a greeting - which they proceeded to say in a wrong intonation 🙄🤌It's where Poseidon says "ya sás" in the Fates, by the way. How he said it sounds more like "for you (pl.)" than "health to you (pl.)".

Surprise! The only Greek actor present (Peter Polycarpou) has less than 5 minutes of screen time and plays the caricature of an immigrant with a thick (and inaccurate Greek) accent. He has a canteen, selling falafel which is not Greek, and Dionysus buys from him an unidentified tortilla wrap (which... is also not Greek, if you haven't caught up).

For the show they brought in actors of Maori, Nigerian and Sierra Leonean, Pakistani, Black American, Latvian-Jewish, Iranian, Egyptian, Indo-Fijian and Malay descent and you tell me it was impossible for them to seek and find an English-speaking, skilled actor of Greek descent in a show regarding Greek heritage. Sometimes I wonder, do y'all hate us so much?

They considered Greeks only to give us a simple (and wrong) greeting and a stereotype. Crumbs, we are supposed to be happy with. By the way, there are over 70.000 Greek immigrants just in the UK, usually in the urban centers, many of them students or fairly young employees in the corporate workforce. Not the largest minority but not hard to spot either.

Another plague of Anglophone shows: Almost everyone's Greek name is shortened. Yes, we know their full names but we are told that we will use the short ones. Greeks and their "long and difficult" names am I right fellas? Because saying "Ariadne" apparently requires 5 years of Greek language training, and no English word ever has more than two syllables.

Coincidentally, short names are cool in Anglophone imaginary universes and the "long" names are not. it's so strange Anglophones never make universes where it's cool for Greek names to be spoken in full hmmm... They don't even want to practice saying a whole Greek name for just 2 minutes in preparation for a show full of Greek names. And don't give me that "Greek is hard" shit when we only talk about a few syllables. If Greek kids can learn English since first grade and people here can sing English songs and spell English names, you have no excuse.

They also said the name "Fotis" means light, which is close enough but... ugh.. It's like saying Sebastian means "respect". I am not sure if they asked anyone or what their research was here. If I had the writers in front of me, I'd be like:

(This character from an all-time favorite Greek show is called Fotis)

They also made the flag of "Krete" an alteration of the Greek flag and the local Cretan flag. Which is the stupidest move, because they had to remove the religious symbol of the cross to make the flag fit the universe. These are flags created based on 1) Christianity 2) the Greek Revolution of 1821.

National Greek flag to the left, local Cretan flag to the right:

Flag of the KAOS' "Krete":

The only time they seriously took into account anything Greek, was the time when they decided to remove the religious symbol of our ethnoreligion AND (from what I could observe) keep the nine stripes?? The nine stripes of our national flag represent the syllables in "Freedom or Death". The colors are from the white foustanela of the mainland attire and the dark blue vraka of the island attire, the clothing of the Revolution fighters. (That's more of a meta explanation but the characteristics of the flag were decided during and nearly after the Revolution.)

I think I don't have to explain it more but it's not a homage to put the nine stripes in an ancient era where they have no meaning, and to replace a cross??? Let's... not replace religious symbols on national flags, okay? Thank you.

Another cultural element they changed was making everyone have a dedicated coin to pay Charon. Orpheus has Euridice's coin, "her coin", and he's meant to put it on her before she got buried. In Greek culture, any coin would do. Sorry that our culture restricts your script, dear writers. I guess you had to bend this too, in order to create a cohesive plot with a semblance of a twist.

Finally, the many "Kerberus" dogs were cute and I can understand the creative decision behind that. However, in a show full of inaccuracies, this made me roll my eyes a little. I think the showrunners know that Kerveros is not a breed of dog, and there can only be one of him because he doesn't have any other "Kerveros" to breed with. On the other hand, as demonstrated from art/writing on the internet, quite a lot of Westerners are not exactly aware of how our monsters work, so forgive my uncertainty 😅

Nothing is Anything

Every element KAOS played with ended up meaningless. In the words of a Lifo article:

“Zeus is a paranoid authoritarian dictator in mid-life crisis who fears losing his power and murders his aides to vent. Hera is a promiscuous goddess who repeatedly betrays Zeus and has mutilated mute priestesses for protection. Dionysos is a spoiled and immature zoomer who, apart from pranks, indulges in orgies with all genders. Poseidon a sadistic god of the sea, who tortures the crew on his ship for fun. Prometheus is gay and killed his lover so he could overthrow Zeus. Orpheus is a famous pop singer and Eurydice does not love him. Theseus is black and gay. The Erinyes are tough-as-nails mechs that look like they stepped out of ‘Sons of Anarchy’. The Fates resemble a three-member jury in a talent show. The Trojans are a terrorist group that acts against the gods. Crete is more reminiscent of California than the Mediterranean.”

The "River Styx" is a sea, the "River Lethe" is a lake, the gods are nothing more than spoiled humans, the Moirai are drag queens, the Cave is a club where you have to take a quiz to enter the underworld, and generally everything is modern, flat, mundane and anticlimactic. The producers aimed to achieve a work so meta that a "river" is now a concept, a metaphor, whatever you have in your heart. And those who want to see a river when we speak of a river are probably uncultured swines and don't understand postmodernism. Never mind that rivers are rivers in Greek mythology for a reason. That's not culturally interesting enough to explore compared to the new, cool approach of not assigning meaning to anything. That totally shows love for the original rich and meaningful material...

And the reason behind all this subversion? Probably the shock factor. They brought the characters to a point where they said "We have to save the world from Zeus" - Zeus! The father of gods, heroes and humans! - just because they could. It gives off a certain type of smugness that I personally don't like. I mean, I would like the smugness and cheekiness of KAOS if it wasn't a vapid and practically meaningless show. As nothing symbolizes anything anymore, we are just led from hollow plot point to hollow plot point.

If you cut it out of any cultural influence and see it as a story then it's... okay, I guess. But when you consider that it's meant to derive from certain material and it fails spectacularly, it's not a good story. It forgets its bases and doesn't play with the ancient elements at all. Disney's Hercules did it better, FFS!

Bad Writing (pt.1)

KAOS is not without recognizable themes but their demonstration is so juvenile and heavy-handed that it fails to influence a viewer of average intelligence. For instance, "Riddy" says to her religious mother "You dedicated your whole life to Hera, what about me?" Okay, KAOS, we get it. At the same time, this theme nulls itself because it turns out that Ridy's mother was right to do what she did, as she had a greater goal in mind. (And this, kiddos, is called Bad Writing, because your themes and scenes contradict each other)

The biggest theme I spotted was a criticism of religion and religious people who say "Do as I say, not as I do" and create exceptions for themselves. Only, it's not a criticism of anything real, in this case. It's a fact that some people in the clergy tend to preach peace and love and then they do harm, but we don't know, for example, that The Goddess of Marriage is a cheater and yet she pressures everyone into strict marriages. By focusing their wrath on divine beings who are not known for their hypocrisy, the creators missed the mark.

I can give KAOS props for how it handled Trojans to reflect real issues regarding how immigrants and war refugees are mistreated and blamed. I'd argue it was the only (nearly) well-done theme in the whole show because it had the least on-the-nose delivery and some genuine/serious scenes. But that's it.

More Bad Writing!

Jeff Goldblum's Zeus is shit. He'd crap his pants in an argument with a stern Greek dad/uncle his age. Is this character supposed to be intimidating? (Laughs in Mediterranean) That's not to say that Goldblum is not a good actor, but this role wasn't for him. The same can be said for the other actors, too. They are competent but they only give off the air of "The Greek gods if they lived in London, from the minds of people who think beards and body hair are an affliction". In addition to being misplaced, the actors cannot show their talent when following a script that resembles a children's book.

Why does THE GOD Dionysus have the maturity of a 15-year-old? I repeat, The God Dionysus. He's a freaking deity, and a very old one at that. He is not a teenager neither in appearance nor in experience. In our culture, he is mystical, mighty, wise. Why did they downgrade him so? Just for the plot? This is not Dionysus just because you named him so.

The dialogue rarely takes itself seriously to the point it has you wondering at times "Do people talk and behave like that?". In a comedy where everything is meant to be already extreme and parodied. Even in comedies, something must occasionally be serious so there is a healthy fluctuation in tone and the funny moments can hit you. In KAOS very few scenes treated their impactful dialogue as it should be treated.

The queerness and diversity (good elements, in general) were worse off for being in KAOS. Like, I want these elements to be there. I'm just sad about the whole situation. It's not enough that the show is shit, now you also give an additional reason for conservatives to shit on diverse and queer characters because they are part of a stupid narrative.

I'm the type of person who doesn't mind the queerness of Astyanax and Theseus being lovers in the context of this specific show but they're still the oddest pairing to me because they're from the most irrelevant myths and eras. Also, Astyanax in my mind is a baby who died tragically, for little reason if we are honest, so to bring him back and make him a love interest is... ekh.

In addition, isn't Astyanax supposed to be crippled after a fall from the city walls when he was a baby? Sorry to change subjects but the show is so convoluted and with so many issues that it's extremely difficult to stay on track with what's wrong.

To the person who thought this show was a good idea:

Whatever. Bye. I'm fucking done.

[broadwaycutie16]

Hey, I hope you don't mind me asking, but what is this whole Karma of Lies thing about? I often have some of your posts showing up on my dashboard about how people are not listening to you clarifying things about your story, but I avoided looking into the whole situation myself because I don't want to expose myself to so much (Adrien) salt which I know is at the initial root of all this (or at least, thats how it came across to me)

Would you explain for me what this situation is about? I'm always intrigued by this whole thing whenever I see another post from you, because of how wild reading about it all out for context is, but now curiosity finally got the best of me x3

So basically, KoL starts as your basic salt plot. Marinette’s being bullied by Lila, her friends are extorting her and accusing her of being unfair to Lila, Adrien’s just like “everything’s fine, Marinette” and telling her to just take all the crap from everyone.

Then Hawkmoth’s identity gets out, and Lila decides to cut her losses and get the hell out of there, but not without getting something out of the deal. She gets Adrien to send her money to her, and because Adrien is so trusting, he puts in the info for his family’s emergency bank account right where she can see it, not even thinking that Lila would try to screw him over. Spoiler alert: She does. She drains Adrien’s whole account of fifty million, leaving him without a cent in this catastrophic time in his life, and skips town by telling her mom a sob story. She also tricks the class into giving up their most expensive possessions, and then sells them to other people after she leaves.

So now Lila’s committed a grand felony, and she’s clear to continue her reign of terror anywhere she wants, with her newfound wealth goving her limitless potential on destroying lives. And you know what Marinette does to stop her?

NOTHING.

Marinette refuses to lift a finger to get Lila arrested. The narrative would have you believe that it’s because she’s setting boundaries and taking care of her mental health for a change, but it’s easy to figure out the REAL reason. She gives all these excuses over why she’s unable to do anything about it, using lots of loopholes, completely ignoring the fact that she’s supposed to be a superhero and thus has a moral obligation to stop Lila, if nothing else just to save all the innocent people she’ll destroy in the future.

Meanwhile, Adrien becomes penniless, his father goes on the run, and his aunt refuses to personally take him in because she’s more concerned about the scandal than about her orphaned nephew, basically resigning him to live in Marinette’s old apartment with hardly anything to call his own while Marinette moves into his old room at the mansion after getting a job with Audrey Bourgeois, who has now taken control of Gabriel’s company. And all through this, Marinette and the narrative are basically saying, “you didn’t help me when I needed you to stick for me, so now I’m not gonna help you when you need it”, basically ignoring the fact that what’s happening to Adrien is a hundred times worse than what happened to her.

Even worse, Marinette trashes all her friends’ reputations on live TV, calling them out for mistreating her without stating the reason why they mistreated her, so the public doesn’t know the full story. And Adrien, desperate to get his life back, makes a stupid and arrogant mistake and tries to take down Mayura by himself, but is easily fooled by her to give her opportunity to steak his ring. The villains are defeated, but now everyone in Paris thinks Adrien gave Nathalie the ring on purpose, and accuse him of being a willing accomplice to his father, effectively crushing any little particles of hope he had left for his future.

But what truly makes this fic a dumpster fire of a story, is how the author directs the whole narrative to try and make you believe that everything that happened to Adrien was 100% justfied, that not supporting Marinette and letting some girl bully her and turn her friends against her, a problem that was temporary at worst and that basically was nothing more than some schoolgirl drama, means that he, a fourteen year old boy from an abusive household, deserves to be virtually homeless, bankrupt, disowned by his entire family, and falsely accused if terrorism, and doomed to living the rest of his life out on the streets, without even the slightest conception that maybe it was a little too much.

Oh, and the only punishment Lila gets is some vague warning from Marinette about her future, and apparently, that’s supposed to be enough to stop the girl who knowingly teamed up with a terrorist and was willing to doom the city just to get back at one person for one embarrassing incident in front of one person.

Basically, The Karma of Lies is the worst salt fic of all the salt fics, punishing Adrien for childish stupidity with permanent life damage beyond anything written in salts before, and trying to send the message that it’s okay for Marinette to let it all happen just to get back at him for not being a better friend.

Trust me, do not read it. It is a garbage fire. I regret reading it every day. It’s really messed with my head. Even now, I’d wholly welcome an infinite number of sequel fics punishing Marinette and her “friends” (read: evil minions) for what they did, because if the story says that Adrien deserves his fate for doing nothing, they deserve even worse. This fic is the epitome of everything wrong with the Miraculous Ladybug fandom.

[summer-nights19]

Omertá part 2

Romeo Scorpius Lucci x fem reader

Part 1

Part 3

(A.N. - for those who don't know, the term "fico" is Italian slang for cool or attractive, depending on the context in which it's used)

You took a deep breath, steadying yourself as you met Romeo's cold gaze. While having someone from a former rival family point a gun at you on the first day of uni was unexpected, it wasn't the first or the last near death situation you'd experienced. In fact, at this point you practically lived life on fight or flight.

Once your senses were beginning to recover from the initial shock, you pulled out your own gun and held it to his temple, your movements quick and precise. You kept looking up at him, your gaze full of defiance. Ever since you were a kid, your entire life had been dictated by the whims of men like him, whether it was something small, like what events you could attend or what to wear out in public, or something life changing, like cutting all contact with your family and moving to the other side of the world. First, it had been your father, and after the collapse of your family, it had been Russo and his henchmen. Nothing in your life was truly yours, and you were sick of it - the more this realization dawned on you, the more you could feel the wave of adrenaline surging through your body.

Your voice laced with rage, you switched to Italian and addressed your attacker.

"What are you gonna do now, Mr Lucci ? You're in exactly the same position I'm in. Do you seriously think that, after all the time I spent escaping men like you, I'm going to let you intimidate me ? If you're doing this as some misguided attempt to get revenge for the collapse of your family at the hands of my father, don't bother. My family isn't doing any better these days. In fact, I don't even know if they're still alive. So, if you have something to say to me, put that thing away and say it. However, if you truly do wish to kill me, just know that I don't plan on going to hell without dragging you down with me,"

As you finished speaking, Romeo's expression shifted, the hint of a smirk playing on his lips. He almost looked ... intrigued ? Amused ? However, when he spoke, his voice was ice cold, just like the gun still pressed against your forehead.

"You're in no position to be making demands here, L/N. Don't forget whose office you're in, and whose people you're surrounded by," As he spoke, Romeo took a few steps towards you and gave you a sharp push, trapping you against the wall with his arm. Refusing to give up, you started squirming in an attempt to free yourself, but his grip on your arm merely got stronger, and he tapped his gun against your forehead to remind you that he too was holding your life in the palm of his hand. Lowering his head so that his face was mere inches from yours, Romeo started speaking again, his voice lower and full of unspoken threats.

"You think that I'd want you dead for a reason as infantile as the collapse of my family at the hands of your father ? That's ridiculous. My father was an idiot who gambled his life away at your family's casino, so what happened was inevitable. However, I'd never make the same mistakes as him, and I'll rebuild the family empire from the ground if I have to,"

Suddenly, you were very aware of how close you were to him. His scent was almost overpowering, the smell of expensive cologne assaulting your senses.

"That's a cool story and all, but what do I have to do with all this ? My family's casino doesn't even fucking exist anymore,"

Romeo chuckled, his frown turning into a mocking smirk.

"Considering you're moments away from your death, you're being very demanding. It's not like-"

"It's the bounty, isn't it ? The one the Russo family has on my head ? It's the only other thing it could be. €1,000,000 to take me out, right ?"

Romeo's eyes widened a little, but he made no attempt to deny it.

"Business is business. I'm going to discuss an increase in payment after this since you clearly won't make it easy,"

You chuckled. Romeo was right. At the end of the day, business was business, and there was little more to it than that, whether it was money, weapons, cocaine or lives. However, him saying that aloud had given you an idea for a potential way out of this mess.

"You know what's better than making €1,000,000 one time from a difficult hit, Mr Lucci ? Making hundreds of thousands of additional euros each month as you do nothing but sit back while the money pours in. Could I make a proposal that I think would be mutually beneficial ?"

Romeo frowned at you, but he put his gun away and wrapped his hand around your gun, snatching it before you could try anything. Having disarmed you, he nodded towards his plush couch.

"Sit down and start talking. I'll give you five minutes. Fail to convince me, and I'll carry on with the hit. Also, L/N ?"

You looked up at where he was standing, feeling the adrenaline punping through your body once more.

"Remember that this time, you don't have a gun to fall back on,"

You gave him a small nod, rolled your shoulders back and started your explanation.

"From what I gather, your captain is unreliable when it comes to managing the casino, and I'm sure that leaves you with the majority of the workload, which would make running it smoothly a lot more difficult. Also, despite the fact that this is meant to be an upscale place, when Ritsu and I made our way here I noticed that there was a slight stain on the carpet and that some of the drapes were fraying. Are you perhaps struggling with profits, Mr Lucci ?"

Romeo glared at you, but made no attempt to correct anything you said.

"I normally wouldn't even consider this kind of job, and, if it had to be done, I'd let an underling do it. However, I'd looked into you enough to know that that wasn't going to cut it,"

"Mr Lucci, my proposal is that you take me on as your assistant. Between us, we could drastically reduce your workload and manage the casino way more efficiently. Not to mention that I know how these things work. My family used to run the biggest casino in Napoli. I might have never directly participated in managing it, but I still know how to rig the system and get customers hooked at the same time. With our collected experiences, we could make way more money than that in the next six months,"

Once you finished talking, you realised that Romeo wasn't glaring at you with as much hostility anymore. In fact, he almost looked interested, if the eyebrow he'd raised slightly was anything to go by.

"And how do I know that you're being honest about all this ? Also, it's Fico"

"Give me a week to show you what I can do. If you still doubt me by the end of it, you can do what you want with me."

Romeo fell silent, contemplating what you'd said. After a few minutes, he smirked and walked up to the couch to sit next to you.

"I've got to give it to you, L/N, you're a fascinating one. Fine. You're hired,"

You grinned at him, but before you could express your gratitude, Romeo held out his hand and continued talking.

"Remember that this is temporary for now. Also, if you want to live past next week, I'd recommend doing everything I ask of you with the utmost care. I don't tolerate disrespect or incompetence among my subordinates,"

Giving him a confident nod, you held out your hand and he shook it firmly.

"It's a deal then, BB. On another note, come by my office tomorrow so I can give you a few good hand lotions and moisturisers because your hands are incredibly dry,"

"BB ?" You asked, ignoring the criticism of your handcare. Romeo rolled his eyes.

"It's an abbreviation. It means basic bitch,"

For all his big talk, Romeo was somewhat hard to take seriously. You tried not to laugh, biting back giggles as you turned around to face him.

"Mhm ok Fico,"

Romeo scowled at you, picking up on the mocking undertones in your voice.

"You'd do well to remember that your life is still effectively mine to do what I want with before being a brat,"

Widening your eyes in mock innocence, you continued.

"But you asked to be called that. I'll admit that I find the choice of title a little strange, honestly. Why do you want everyone to call you that ? Seems kinda path-"

"Get out, BB. I've had enough of your nonsense for tonight,"

Still biting back a smile as you took in Romeo's deepening scowl, you got up off the couch and walked towards the door. However, just before you could open it, Romeo spoke again.

"One last question. How did you extrapolate all that information about the casino based on solely the boss' absence and a few stains here and there ?"

This time, you let yourself smile, but it had a hint of sadness in it.

"When you're raised the way I was, with everything constantly being hidden behind a veil of lies and secrets, you learn to observe. Every observation counts, Mr Lucci, because everything you see holds implications about what the truth behind what you're trying to find is. Despite us coming from very similar backgrounds, I doubt the way we were brought up was anywhere near the same, with you actually being the heir to your family and all"

For the first time that night, Romeo was looking at you without any trace of hostility. His face had ironed out into a blank mask as he considered what you were saying. Finally, he chuckled a little and met your smile with a smirk.

"Maybe you're of some use, after all. Now get out, BB, and go to bed. You have a long day ahead of you tomorrow,"

Masterlist

[emblazons]

Still thinking about how understanding what happened in the S3-S4 relational narratives requires you suspend the belief that the last two (soon to be 3) seasons of Stranger Things are designed to stand alone.

With S1 and S2, the seasons existed as standalone entities—S2 was a sequel yes, but it wasn't a direct narrative extension of the action that occurred in the season before. You could watch Season 2 with only a bit of context from the first season (one boy got kidnapped and taken by the monster into another dimension, the girl from the lab with the superpowers showed up and they worked together to save said boy, but then she disappeared and was presumed dead) and watch the second season with little issue.

Its not the same with Seasons 3-5. If anything...it helps when analyzing to imagine Seasons 3-5 as one "season" in the same way S1 and S2 exist as single entities; the Duffers have already confirmed its true for Seasons 4-5, but it gets a lot easier to follow arcs and action, particularly for the youngest characters, if you stop trying to find coherence in single-season stories and look at each season as three parts of a whole.

This is true across the board, but it's particularly true in the case of understanding Byler, both as individuals and a pairing (though the full buildup of their romantic arc will take us across all 5 seasons). Understanding why S3 feels like you just got dropped into nonsense with them specifically (after two seasons of Michael "I'm the only one who cares about Will" Wheeler and Will "I am central to the story even when I'm off screen" Byers) is because The Duffers took the risk of introducing a brand new set of conflicts to the youngest characters: namely, ongoing romantic relationships, personal identity crises and sexuality...only without resolving the conflict and action in the 8-9 episodes they usually do, which is why you feel frustrated by it.

Basically: Season Three was the season where we set up the relational problems that need to be fixed—we just have three entire seasons to work through them, which means its gonna look bad at the start and good as we work through the problem (over the course of a few seasons) to get to the solution.

forewarning: ferociously long post ahead (with headers for clarity)

Will’s Arc: A (Queer) Coming of Age

With Will, the problem re-introduced in S3 is that he feels different from his peers, and not just because he's gay; its because 1) he is in love with Mike in a way that is more genuine than we are being presented in the third season (that "sandbox" "puppy love" "break up and makeup" summer fling energy that S3 has) and 2) he is unwilling to step into the lie of "maturity" as its being presented in the story, aka giving up things like hanging out with his friends over focusing on relationships or giving up games (DnD in particular).

(sidebar: I wrote another analysis touching on the above here).

A lot of people I've met who watch the show casually say things like "it just seems like he's not able to grow up like his friends" and even "he's falling behind," but I think that's on the right track while missing the point: the reason Will is written as "refusing to grow up" is because he is the character that represents the rebellion of The Duffer's heart and interests, and both of the things that seem like they would be a bad because they make his character different in the narrative are actually surprisingly positive for his "three season" arc...if you understand what the ongoing themes of Stranger Things are.

With Will, the “problem” in the story exists because he is the one who represents being weird/the outcast/queer and not giving into the social pressure to “let go” of that—he loves another boy, is more emotional than his peers and loves nerdy things like his tabletop board game and refuses to deny that to himself, no matter how brutalizing that is for him and his feelings. In that way, he is the character who “represents” the sentiment of The Duffers themselves—he is a nerd, a child at heart, and he has no problem taking DnD and anything else into “adulthood,” (looking at you “yeah, yeah I really did” during the rain fight) the same way The Duffers have.

That said: as we move into season 4, Will is presented with an evolution of this conflict—he wants to continue to be honest with and about himself, his feelings, and his interests…but it comes in direct conflict with his understanding of his peers & Mike, whom he loves.

We see this conflict show up repeatedly in Will’s actions in S4, especially in regards to the painting, which is the physical representation of both his love of Mike and his embracing of his nerdiness. Will shows up to the airport with his painting in spite of not speaking to Mike because his heart is to be honest and true-to-self regardless of anyone else—you even see this as he takes the painting on the road when they plan on going back to Hawkins, after he makes up with Mike. The problem is though (and this plays into the whole “we want you to feel like you lost” sentiment The Duffers spoke about, as S4 is the “down” before the “up”resolution of the whole narrative) that Will he realizes that his desire to be honest is getting in the way of (his perception of) the happiness of the people he loves, so he decides to betray his character and break the first cardinal rule of The Party…to tell his first lie.

There are plenty of phenomenal analyses on other aspects of Will’s connection to Vecna/the UD and the love triangle dynamic at play across this app so I’ll leave that alone here (I do have many thoughts on why the above makes Henry Creel the perfect villain foil to Will specifically), but: for the sake of understanding Will’s relational narrative arc, it’s critical to understand that our “low” for him is the betrayal of his ongoing S3 character—and that him undermining his self-honesty, nerdiness and love for Mike are the things that The Duffers have set themselves up to resolve in S5.

The resolution for Will is to re-embrace his differences —to realize that lying to yourself and other people about who you are and what you love (both in terms of “nerdy” interests and his queerness) is not who he wants to be, no matter how hard it is to stand up for in the wake of adversity—along with embracing the power of real love, which is also an ongoing theme the Duffers have set up in their relationships beginning in Season 3.

Now…on to Michael.

Mike’s Arc: Finding Yourself & Embracing What Makes You Different

—anyone with a single toe in this fandom knows that Mike Wheeler is one of the most divisive characters in this story when it comes to deciding 1) what his motivations are and 2) what his desires will be, but (and bare with me on this)…I think that’s kind of the point of his story. Mike’s “three season” arc is about him moving through a confusion of identity into someone who can embrace himself while addressing the things he is most insecure about—namely; being seen, being useful, and (very, very likely) the fact that the person who makes him feel most secure, seen, useful and loved is another boy.

There are several context clues that give credence to the fact that the reason Mike feels so wishy-washy / lacking in depth is because his struggle is not knowing how to find his place in the world, though you have to go further back than S3 to find them. Let me explain.

From the literal pitch of the show, there has always been an undercurrent of self-doubt and insecurity in Mike; his desire to escape the weight of feeling insecure has been a driving factor in his actions since before he was even on the screen, and it is impossible to understand what motivates him without first understanding that.

With Mike, his actions across all seasons have been weighed down by his desire to escape his insecurities through action—and as he’s gotten older, what he’s used to escape those insecurities (to be someone like the paladin he plays in DnD) has evolved and shifted, ranging through everything from turning the world (no pun intended) upside down to find Will; being willing to sacrifice his life to save Dustin from bullies; using any weapon he could find to fight a baby demogorgon; and wanting to be a heroic knight who protects the perceived vulnerable girl once he starts dating Eleven.

The point is: Mike’s deepest core need is to assuage his insecurities by doing whatever he can to be a good person—and when he feels like can’t do anything or protect the people he loves…he spirals. That’s been true since the start of his character…and everyone from The Duffers to Finn Wolfhard himself has mentioned it.

Now. With that baseline established, let’s talk Season 3.

Ironically enough, a lot of people feel like Mike’s character has “fallen off” because he, by the sake of all appearances, has achieved all the things he is supposed to want—namely a girlfriend, which (at least in his mind) is the physical embodiment of successfully “addressing” his core fears.

Because Mike has all the external markings of a well-adjusted kid—he comes from a wealthy family, has a solid group of friends (who are also mostly now striving for social normalcy) and even a girlfriend—he seems to have addressed what many people even in real life believe is the end of most arcs & the fulfillment of the fantasy. For Mike, the appearance of his S3 life seems to have assuaged the fears at the root of several of his insecurities, including the desire to be needed, the desire to protect, the desire to be useful, and the desire for acceptance…all because now he’s saved El and has her at his side, and having a girlfriend means he has everything a good, well-adjusted guy is supposed to want.

Or…does it?

With how The Duffers set up the story (with S3 as the introduction of a new conflict for every major character), the answer they’re giving you based on how Mike interacts with other characters is no—having a girlfriend and acting “mature” doesn’t solve anything, especially if the core problem of you having an insecure identity while being dishonest with yourself isn’t addressed…and it’s the arc of Mike learning that “lesson” that we find ourselves dropped into moving into Season 3.

Beginning in S3, the war on Mike’s insecure self-concept comes at him on two fronts: on the one side, El, who started her journey needing Mike because of her background but now has no real need for any of the things he so desperately wants to provide as a means to validate himself, and on the other Will, whose deep familiarity and history with Mike combined with his confidence in his own identity presents Mike with a challenge of self-reflection that he doesn’t exactly feel ready for yet.

(sidebar: my post on how Mike's arc is intrinsically tied to a subversion of the "Born Sexy Yesterday" trope is a helpful expansion on things I talk about here).

We see this in how Mike gets frustrated with Max for giving El the space and language to not need him (undermining his role in her life as someone who she needs to protect/guide her); we see it in how he says cruel things when Will behaves in a way that challenges the actions Mike has taken to be “mature” (how he insults Will for not also wanting a girlfriend / still wanting to play the games that set them apart as nerds/different); and we see it in how Mike still goes out of his way to fix those relationships in the best way he can—because he knows on some level that what he’s doing in several moments isn’t in alignment with who he wants to be, even though they are both presenting him with radical internal challenges.

Ironically enough, Dustin does a great job of summarizing the two sides of Mike's internal conundrum in what he says to Steve about Robin—Mike, somewhat like Steve, is struggling between what is socially acceptable in a partner (or "cool") and what he actually wants and enjoys in one—and as El and Will evolve, so does Mike's internal conflict about how he perceives their places in his world.

Between El’s supernatural abilities and rapidly growing autonomy making him obsolete to her in all the areas that matter to Mike (see: the ability to protect, be useful, and be seen) and Will’s reminding him that at his core he is just as much of a nerd as Will is, Mike finds himself feeling more confused and insecure than ever…and that is the internal conflict we see him end S3 battling.

The evolution of Mike’s narrative arc past the introduction of this internal conflict doesn’t happen until is the Byers/Hopper move to Lenora though…when he is literally left alone to process what that intense summer brought to light for him—which is the note we're left on as we move into the next phase of Mike's evolution in S4.

In S4, the development of Mike figuring out what he wants and needs from his relationships + the kind of person he wants to be becomes a lot more external—we see him going through a series of code switches as he tries to manage the ever changing landscape of his self-perception, where has started journey toward self-acceptance but is still insecure about following through with it.

We see this in the way he has now joined The Hellfire Club and shows sincere signs of accepting his interests and "outcast" status, but still looks forlorn when Lucas says “I’m tired of being bullied / I thought you wanted things to be different too” (Lucas’ struggles with some aspects of performing normalcy the way Mike does S4).

We see it in the way he shows up to Lenora dressed in what he thinks he’s should be wearing rather than as himself / the way he continues performing his relationship with El throughout that first day (and how he says it was Will who "sabotaged" things by being that same kind of radical honest about his feelings we talked about before)...only for the events of the day to spur him into meaningful honesty with both El and Will (to varying degrees of success) mere hours later.

We even see it in the way Mike seemed to have been “turning over a new leaf” once he and El fought, to the point he was okay with them ending the “normalcy” performance of their romance…right up until Argyle’s paranoia while burying Unknown Hero Agent Man struck the fear of god back into him (aka making him worry he was letting El down by not protecting her—aka tapping into one of his core fears).

Basically: Mike is leaning into accepting the things that make him different in little ways, but is still struggling to step into that identity fully—aka he is still using perceived social acceptability as a shield, even though he no longer holds as tightly to being perceived as normal. (Even Finn himself often jokes about Mike “just trying to be normal,” which I think is a good, simple explanation of what’s happening—that said, if we take that reading and combine it with those “narrative goals” I mentioned The Duffers have earlier…Mike trying to be normal is an issue to be resolved, not an identity to be embraced. But…let’s move on).

By the time we get to the infamous van scene, we’ve watched Mike struggle through the two sides of his inner conflict for the entire season now, and felt him very gently succeed at switching into a more honest version of himself (who doesn’t need a girlfriend as a shield / can embrace his “otherness” in the same way Will does) right up until his inherent desires to be needed and useful come rearing up the second El is in danger.

It’s why we see him look pleased (but also marred with conflict) when Will looks confident, happy and radiant talking about “playing dnd and Nintendo for the rest of their lives…” and why him being honest in that scene is actually a huge moment for him, because rather than being vague about what has been plaguing him for two seasons now (trying to be “normal” just because he feels insecure) Mike is finally verbalizing the internal conundrum of his now two seasons of looking critically at his insecurities.

Now—I could spend all day digging into just that bit of narrative alone—the way Mike finally externalizing his insecurities to be processed with Will rather than acting on them and hurting people unintentionally is a giant leap for him, and how when Will says “you’re sacred of losing her” Mike’s nod is an acknowledgement that Will is right…but his face is saying there’s more to that fear than he’s acknowledging—

—but for the sake of this analysis of the narrative arcs, the van scene is most important because it’s when the S4 “it feels like you lost” moment begins for Mike…and that’s because it matches up directly with the “you feel like you lost” moment for Will: him lying about the painting.

When Will lies about the painting—saying that his feelings and the art that (as I said before) represents 1) his love of Mike, 2) his embracing of his nerdiness and 3) that radial self-honestly Mike so admires Will for—it throws a wrench into Mike’s internal revelations because Will is essentially saying that the relationship that Mike was slowly realizing he used to assuage his insecurities (his relationship with Eleven) is actually what lines up best with "who he wants to be," which throws Mike’s slow growth toward Will + honesty about what (and who) he wants to be into a tail spin.

From Will’s lie onward, Mike is thrown into moment after moment of conflicting emotions and dire circumstances as well—and given that Mike's deep terror of losing people comes up strongest when the people he loves are in danger, it’s only downhill for Mike’s growth toward self actualization from here. In that sense, (much Jonathan's S4 omissions of his truths/fears to Nancy leading to Nancy's regression into complacency / social conformity with Steve), its Will's lie that leads us directly into the “you feel like you lost” moment for Mike: him moving back into "conforming" territory and confessing his love to El in the SBP.

The monologue (at least in terms of the narrative arc The Duffers are writing) is Mike’s “losing” moment because it’s when he has enough self-revelation to realize that being with a girl as a shield for his insecurities is no longer what he wants...but the drive he has to be useful, protect and love any way he can (on top of Will’s urging + lie) leave him feeling like his only option is stepping into the person he was at the start of S3.

In this moment, we see Mike say exactly what someone who is "acting normal” about loving his girlfriend and wanting to save her would….even though romantic love with El (and the socially-acceptable romantic relationship he has with her) are not what he really wants, and what we will watch crumble moving into S5.

Essentially: Mike having a moment of dissonance of that magnitude after an entire season of looking toward Will was what set us up to see all those "external markings of normalcy" Mike has held onto and had started grating against for two seasons now fall apart, given what we know about those core messages/themes/child-at-heart values the Duffers hold and keep at the heart of their show.

As of the end of S4, we can already see how this "regression" into his old self is not going to hold—the fact that everything Mike did to save El is rooted 1) in a lie and 2) not in alignment with Mike evolving understanding of his core desires makes sure of that.

We even see the beginnings of this "low" being resolved in Mike's arc in how Mike & El are not speaking (even with the 'resolution' of their surface-level S4 conflict with Mike's love confession) and how Mike is glued to Will's side even before Vecna is mentioned–which is how we've been set up to see the resolution of Mike's arc in S5.

With all this in mind, it becomes a bit clearer that the resolution of Mike's arc is him moving through the confusion of identity we've watched him go through from S3 forward and into someone who can embrace who he is what he truly loves without fear of going against what is expected—aka finding the courage not to conform.

Mike as a character is a lesson in how doing what you think you're supposed to (aka what is "normal") is often at odds with who you are and what makes you the happiest—and the only way to self-actualize is to move past your insecurities and into someone who can be confident embracing what (and who) they really want...even when it means stepping out of line from what you’ve grown up believing would do the self-actualizing for you.

Final Thoughts

Both Mike and Will's relational arcs revolve around an embracing of what makes them different—in terms of their (highly likely) mutual queerness, yes, but also in terms of them making self-actualized peace with being nerdy "children at heart" in much the same way The Duffer Brothers themselves are.

If Will represents a person who struggles because they refuse to deny themselves their identity, Mike represents a person who struggles because they don’t understand their identity, and are walking around just trying to do whatever they can to get along (because they haven’t been presented with the inciting conflict that will move them into self-revelation & growth).

Both of these internal conflicts are narrative arcs that have been built into the coming of age stories of both halves of Byler—and though we are currently sitting at the "low" of both of their arcs as of the end of Season 4, the setup and though-line for them finding themselves (and real, honest love with each other) has been clearly set up for exploration in Season 5.

—if you managed to get through all of this, I commend you. And yes, there are a million other things to be explored between these two, but...I enjoy sorting through the thematic / "moral of the story" through-lines in all my media, so of course I was gonna do it for for Byler!

[fartlovingblkguy69]

The Little Men’s Toilet Slave Part 1

(Fictional Gay Fart and Scat Story)

I was drunk and walking through an alley of empty warehouses in Atlanta coming back from the bar one night at night when I passed a building that seemed to have much coming from inside and I heard this strange noise! It sounded like a cross between a grunt and a howl! I went inside to be nosy and to help if need be. Lo and behold it looked like an orgy, but not just any orgy. This was an orgy of about 30 little men. And they were filming! The tallest man, who was standing in the middle of the room was 4’9 with black hair and green eyes and he seemed to be directing all of the scenes. I realized they were about to make a killing as this was a growing category of porn and many of them were unbelievable hot! I felt myself getting a boner, one of the hardest I’d ever gotten, my full 8 inches rising. I fiddled with my jeans and started to jerk my hard rod when the taller man turned and noticed me. “What the fuck? Who let you in here? Stop fucking and grab him and bring him over here ” he yelled. A bunch of them ran over and took me out at the knees before carrying me over the heads and throwing me down at his feet. “What the hell did you think you were doing? Were you spying on us? Maybe trying to scope out competition for another group? And why were you jerking off? You like what you see or something? Maybe you’re one of those weirdos that fetishize little people or something.” “No, I was just passing by when I heard you guys and thought someone might be in trouble so I came to help! I’m gay and you guys are hot! It has nothing to do with you being small, I swear!” “I’m not sure I believe you! And after what you’ve seen we can’t let you leave! You might have a recording or call the cops or something.” “Hey Kyle! Let’s stomp on him! We could crush up his bones and bury him or something! There’s a landfill nearby!” one of the ones currently standing above me chimed in. He was about 3’9, blond, with a hairy chest, rock hard abs, a thick happy trail, and a 5 inch long, 2 inch thick half hard dick. He was super hot, but He’d been glaring at me this whole time with hard icy blue eyes like he wanted to kill me. It was very intimidating. “Hmm maybe. That would certainly be a fun idea. I think I have a better one tho!” the director Kyle said as his stomach gurgled loudly and he winced. He rubbed his stomach and loudly proclaimed “you guys have all been complaining about not being taken seriously by society and also about the lack of bathrooms in this place and I think we might have just found a small, well pretty big solution to both!” Now for context I’m a 6’3 pretty muscularly built white guy, albeit with a bit of a belly. I have long curly brown hair that comes halfway down my back. I cannot believe what I’m hearing. Just what the hell is this guy suggesting anyway? I was about to find out! “Take him to the bathroom and tie him down with his head over that broken toilet! He’s gonna be the replacement!” Kyle said smiling while rubbing his very hairy muscular, but not ripped stomach. I’ll use him first and show you all how it’s done! You better get ready toilet! I got a big load coming your way! We’ve been here for hours and I’ve been munching on pizza and nachos and chugging coffee and protein shakes and I’m lactose intolerant! It’s gonna be a wet ride!” I was dragged to the broken toilet which was dirty and clogged already and watched as they wiped the toilet seat off and cleaned it before flushing the toilet to make the water rise and then plunging my head down yelling “Drink, drink, drink!” trying to make me drink this murky water with a huge turd at the bottom. I refused to open my mouth preferring to drown to death but alas they would pull me up every time I started to black out! This went on for a good 25 minutes before Kyle came in pushing people out of his way, saying, “It’s time! I gotta let this nasty shit rip! My stomach is killing me! I can’t hold it anymore and the filming space is basically uninhabitable from my noxious farts! You boys don’t want me to hold this a second longer, trust me!”

[into-september]

"Destruction" is the worst episode of Miraculous Ladybug

Oh hey guys, remember way back in April or something when I said I was doing this? Well, the one year anniversary of its premiere is a suitable time to post this, particularly since yesterday saw the airing of the last piece of canon to come out in a while, which happened to be set immediately after these events.

With the always obligatory reminder in place that I generally think that “Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir” is in fact a good TV show whose appeal potentially reaches beyond its merchandise-mandated target group, it has an unflattering pattern of introducing the juiciest story threads and then just… do nothing about them.

The topic of today’s sermon isn't in isolation the worst offender. But it is thanks to this that the worst offender happens at all, so I'm not gonna be nice about it.

Scroll past to skip the negativity.

So, “Destruction”, possibly the most eagerly awaited episodes of out S5 if you don’t count all the false advertisement that was “Revelation”. I remember finding this episode uncharacteristically charmless for this show when I first watched it. They've been onto heavy topics before, but those episodes still had that je ne sais quoi that gives this show such heart. But re-watching "Destruction" I found it lacking already from the first scene, and felt it only in glimpses. It's just not fun.

The episode is also poorly paced, no way around it. It is inexplicably a flashback to two episodes ago which is not evident from the start. More than half the runtime technically consists of Marinette and Alya having a sleepover. The battle and its game-changing outcome is over at 12 minutes into the episode, which is barely past the halfway point. After that, we spend five minutes - a quarter of the episode's full runtime - on a flashback re-playing the same battle but now with verbal exposition explaining Marinette's clever plan. Mind that the confrontation between Marinette and Gabriel lasts for all of seven minutes, meaning that the flashback is nearing the length of the battle itself.

To top it of, it's bogged down with lengthy exchange between Gabriel and the kwamis just to make clear that the haters on the twitter were totally wrong when they bitched about Orikko being OP because actually its powers were something else than we established last season. Here's a bonus plot hole which has nothing to do with everything else I'm going to nag about: Orikko allegedly can't give out the powers of time-travel because no kwami can replicate another kwami's powers. Except for Nooroo and Duusu, I guess, who have done so on several occasions. One of the more remarkable being the episode which first heralded the event that "Destruction" set in motion: "Timetagger".

And who can forget that this was the second time in three episodes where Ladybug and Cat Noir had Monarch at their mercy but spent so much time giving triumphant speeches that he gets away.

Or that that in fact was the second time on the same night.

But while those things certainly make the episode poor, they are not what makes it the worst.

What makes this episode the worst isn't its technical failures, but about the way it leaves its feces all over the themes and the character arcs it seemed like the show had been building up until this point. Moreover: in the role it plays in S5 and the Agreste storyline, and how the show's refusal to touch it again creates a black hole in the season at large, and arguably in the show as a whole.

I. THE INESCAPABLE CONTEXT OF WHAT CAME BEFORE IT

The art of telling a story is the art of highlighting what matters and leaving out what doesn’t. In a well-crafted story, no matter the medium, no detail is insignificant. Every word is carefully chosen, every line or hue made with intention. The curtains aren’t blue just because, and Miraculous Ladybug has made too many meta jokes to hide behind the claim that it’s just a silly rom-com for kids. It has trained its older audience into looking for context and connections; after “Mr. Pigeon 72”, you can’t insist that nothing that happened earlier in this show matters for what happens later. Titles matter a lot in a show where episodes are titled after the villain-of-the-week who usually is the thematic mirror to what our heroes are going through.

“Destruction” is the fourth episode somehow named after Adrien, and the third somehow named after Plagg. You bet this matters.

As some might know, "Kuro Neko" is not my favourite episode. That's not to say I don't like it! It's cute! It's playing a really interesting scenario! We get Plagg hanging out at chez Marinette! But to enjoy it, I have to willfully ignore the storytelling incompetence it flagrantly displays. Because the moment you peek beneath the surface of the events happening to consider theme, motifs, and narrative parallels, it's just

"Kuro Neko" is the second episode that is named after Cat Noir. The first one was "Cat Blanc". There is a thematic connection between the two; not a very clear one and probably not an intentional one, but all the same: both episodes are about an alternative to Cat Noir. One is the result of his father's violence; the other is Adrien's own attempt to become more like the person he presents around his father. They also both show us Plagg and Adrien negotiation Adrien's relationship to Ladybug, and how Ladybug and Cat Noir negotiate that same thing.

"Cat Blanc", for all its apocalyptic visions, starts and ends with hope. It starts with Marinette’s hope at confessing to Adrien, to Adrien’s hope in finally knowing Ladybug’s identity and knowing her like he’s yearned for for three seasons. Those hopes lead to disaster, but the episode ends with Ladybug finding Cat Noir on the Montparnasse Tower, where he is singing his lullaby about the kitty being "all alone without his Lady". As is fitting, Marinette breaks the pattern: after having just witnessed a world turned to destruction because the two of them loved each other, she leans her head on his shoulder in perhaps the most romantic gesture she's ever given him.

"Kuro Neko", in contrast, starts with Adrien resigning the job when he realises that Ladybug no longer needs him and that makes him feel bad. It ends with him coming back and verbally accepting that Ladybug doesn't owe him any exclusive treatment; he isn't her unique partner, just one of many. Where the final scene of "Cat Blanc" seemed to confirm that Ladybug is indeed the answer to Adrien's solitude, the final scene of "Kuro Neko" and its continuation in the first scene in "Risk" both make clear that the opposite is now status: Adrien has to accept the painful fact that as much as Ladybug might be the most important person in his life, Cat Noir does not hold a similar space in Ladybug's.

(The end of “Strike Back” of course claims to remedy this, but those words don’t ring very true when to Marinette’s knowledge, nothing of what went wrong today had anything to do with her keeping secrets from Cat Noir. More damning: Marinette never follows up on her purported regret. In all of S5, she never once sits down to share all those secrets with Cat Noir. Status from "Kuro Neko" still stands, and Adrien is fine with that now. This has nothing to do with the many problems “Destruction” creates, but talking about “Kuro Neko” by necessity means talking about how it wasn’t fixed even if they put the words in Marinette’s mouth. And now back to our scheduled programming)

"Cat Blanc" and "Kuro Neko" by their very existence bring up a thorny topic: That Adrien being Cat Noir isn't wholly unproblematic, and that both Adrien as an individual and Ladybug as the Guardian might have legitimate reasons to question that choice. This has always been obvious to the viewer who knows Hawkmoth’s identity, but the show itself eventually starts calling attention to that from an entirely different angle - namely that of his powers.

Lest we forget: The first episode of S4 that aired wasn't the first episode chronologically: It was "Furious Fu", wherein we learn that The Order of the Guardians has it out for Plagg specifically, and where Ladybug's status as The Guardian is almost revoked on the grounds that she's letting him run around unsupervised. This question of Plagg's whereabouts comes up again in the only episode that is named after Adrien sans Plagg: "Ephemeral", a re-play of “Cat Blanc” except not good. This whole subplot is quickly forgotten, though it being the only one of Su-Han's complaints that weren't about him being a boomer, it's also worth remember that "Destruction" technically happens a couple of hours after he made his last appearance. One might expect that his one consistent lesson would be important enough to echo a bit in the episode where it’s proven to be justified.

"Destruction", as not only one very early episode of the season promising to finally bring about some significant and not the least permanent changes to their lives, but indeed an episode happening on the same night as Ladybug's declaration of regret and Cat Noir's renewed declaration to be her partner, would by its title and its topic seem like the obvious place to finally resolve what "Cat Blanc" and "Kuro Neko" both asked us to question: The existential terror of Plagg's powers, why it is that Adrien is uniquely chosen to temper them at Ladybug’s side, and how Adrien feels about being the one to carry that responsibility.

Yeah. Well.

II. ADRIEN'S PRESENCE IN "DESTRUCTION"

Where "Kuro Neko" and "Cat Blanc" place significant focus on Adrien Agreste in his civillian life, in "Destruction" he appears on screen for a total of 25 seconds - most of which are another flashback to a previous episode, and whose purpose is to highlight Gabriel's hurt from the cataclysm, not Adrien's thoughts about what is happening.

Cat Noir's presence is also marginal. Three minutes of screentime pass from his first appearance until the battle is over. Said battle is the turning point in the war between the heroes and Monarch, thanks to neither Ladybug's powers nor Monarch and all the kwamis, but Monarch using Cat Noir's powers for an impulsive act of self-mutilation. Cat Noir is distraught over this, turning desperate when Monarch first start toying with the idea and being near tears after he carries it out.

I'll get back to the impact of this event, but for now I'll point out that the aftermath is brief: After Monarch escapes, our heroes have this exchange:

LB: We had him, we almost had him! The kwamis were safe, they were right here! CN: I cataclysmed him! I can't believe this, I just cataclysmed someone! Granted it was Monarch, but - there was a real person behind that mask, and it must have hurt him terribly! Milady, you gotta fix this! LB: Cat Noir, Monarch just ran away with my lucky charm! Without it, I can't fix anything. I can't call on my powers and undo the effect of the cataclysm. There's nothing I can do...

We then cut to the slumber party, where Marinette tells Alya that she and Cat Noir "split up" immediately after, and Alya comforts her. From this point in the episode, Cat Noir and Adrien only appear in flashbacks. First a fifty-second flashback wherein Marinette sets up her convoluted plans, then a few seconds of him moving his statue in the wax museum before Monarch appears.

In the episode that more than anything should thematise Adrien, Plagg's powers, and his relationship to his father, Adrien is on screen for a whooping four minutes and twenty seconds.

And because I am that devoted to proving my point, I went and timed all of Alya's on-and-off appearances, which clocked in at a total of five minutes and six seconds.

Alya is of course core to the slumber party which frames the setting of the entire episodes. Moreover, it is with Alya that the emotional arc of the episode ends: it starts with Marinette tormenting hersef watching a Ladyblog report about Monarch's recent win, for which Alya chastises her. The last scene (before Gabriel pulverises the miraculous) has Alya reassure Marinette that she will get the kwamis back. When she regrets her lack of superpowers, Marinette in turn reassures her that Alyas true superpower is being her friend. The journey of the episode was for Marinette to stop blaming herself for messing up, and learning to rely on Alya's support in the new turn the war has taken.

...

IN THE EPISODE WHERE ADRIEN KILLS HIS FATHER.

III. SIR NOT-APPEARING-IN-THIS-FILM

In the episode where Gabriel commits suicide on his son's miraculous, here are some things that got more screentime than the son forced into using his only source of liberation to kill his father:

Flashbacks to past events (four minutes and fourty-five seconds)

Alya (five minutes six seconds)

The kwamis (six minutes and nine seconds)

Bet you can't guess which one is the only kwami who doesn't appear in this episode!

...okay, and Duusu, but you get the point. In the episode detonating the nuke that is the gruesome potential of Plagg's powers, and the potential damage Adrien might deal with them, Plagg never appears on screen.

In the episode highlighting the presence of the kwamis and their importance to their holders, the kwami whose presence is the most thematically tied to his holder's character arc is completely absent.

In the episode irreparably going into the only kwami whose powers is straight up murder, the kwami who The Guardians have singled out specifically as particularly dangerous, the kwami whose irresponsible nature has previously caused problems both to Adrien privately and Cat Noir professionally, said kwami is never even mentioned.

It's almost as if we're not supposed to remember that it is because of his presence that this whole tragedy was possible.

IV. THE EXISTENCE-DEFINING HORROR OF A CATACLYSM GONE WRONG

And ain’t that a funny one, when the gruesome potential in Plagg’s powers was the driving factor in Adrien’s first true crisis as a hero?

Marinette faced her moment in "Origins", where she gave up on her miraculous after the first disastrous attempt. She knows that she is the only one who can do something about the situation, but refuses out of her own lacking courage. She only becomes Ladybug of her own choice when she realises that she can save Alya's life. After this, Marinette never again questioned her place. She would grieve the burden on occasion, but she never once thought anyone else could do better.

Adrien, as we all know, was the polar opposite: he jumped right into it without reading the manual, had to have Ladybug pick up the pieces after a rash cataclysm, and never doubted his calling again until he realised what Plagg’s powers could do when used on a living being.

The NYC special has Adrien quit for reasons that had nothing to do with being unsatisfied with Ladybug's HR policies. It is in part because he effed up his duty as Paris' substitute guardian, but it's certainly also because of the recent horror he just witnessed: his hand forced by someone else nearly killed Ladybug, and killed Uncanny Valley instead as she stepped between them. Adrien just saw a mother weeping over her daughter's corpse, and how only the lucky presence of Ladybug's powers could undo the damage caused by his, unintentional thought it might have been. Adrien would of course never kill anyone on purpose, but Uncanny Valley’s temporary malfunction was a brutal display of what would happen if he stumbled the wrong direction with the gun loaded. Ladybug might have the duty to protect Paris, but Cat Noir has the duty to not to disintegrate people on touch.

The show never before discussed the weight of this burden in Adrien’s presence. “Cat Blanc” did it from Marinette’s side, but this never was a consistent story thread, only briefly brought up as her remembering why his knowing her identity is a bad idea. The sabbatical in “Kuro Neko” has nothing to do with Plagg or with Adrien’s sense of duty, and where you’d think this would be where Marinette finally brings up the issue bridging the NYC special and “Cat Blanc”, neither of the two are as much as alluded to. That Adrien has the power of murder has yet to be explicitly discussed in the show proper, but in combination with his personal relationship to Hawkmoth being a ticking irony bomb, the question of can he even bear it is inevitable.

That Adrien’s post as Cat Noir wasn’t as given as Marinette’s as Ladybug is echoed in the amount of times that Adrien has either quit or at least contemplated doing so (“Syren”, NYC special, “Wishmaker”, “Kuro Neko”). He likes being Cat Noir more than Marinette likes being Ladybug, but he lacks her iron certainty in the role. It is notable, then, that THE ONE TIME where Marinette questions her part, it is after Cat Noir has quit. She says this, out loud, in words. When Cat Noir’s powers become too heavy for Adrien to carry, then Ladybug, too, disappears.

So surely "Destruction" must be the point where this is finally comes together - where Adrien's history of quitting meets his ultimate crisis, where his powers abused on a human being of flesh and blood forces him into confronting the potential cost of being this particular hero, which will foreshadow the ultimate choice he’ll have to take: between being Cat Noir and being his father’s son. And where his choice, in turn, will define whether Ladybug can exist.

Or not.

Maybe we'll never again have Adrien think about how he probably murdered a man. Maybe we'll just - oh I don't know.

Have him start trying to cataclysm people?

Repeatedly?

While showing none of the horror at himself which he clearly had in the aftermath of accidentally cataclysming the villain responsible for his later victims’ possession?

And in the end, after never calling attention to Adrien’s new and trigger happy ways, we’ll have him give in to his fear, claim that he isn’t strong enough to responsibly use Plagg’s powers, and send his miraculous away for Ladybug to use alone, because it turns out that “Kuro Neko” was right and the NYC special was wrong: she can be Ladybug without him.

Growth, amirite.

V. IN THIS HOUSE WE DON’T TALK ABOUT PATRICIDE

Dramatic irony was the main engine driving "Miraculous Ladybug" from the start, and it was Adrien who bore the brunt of it. Not only did he spend four and a half seasons in unrequited love with a girl who rejected him for himself; he spent five seasons doing weekly battle against his own father.

The superpower war between father and son isn't just a source of story tension, however: it is inextricably mirrored in their relationship as family, where the father is openly abusive and the son is magically incapable of protesting. The show repeatedly makes A Point about how the freedom Adrien so wants, is one that he only gets through being Cat Noir, and the only way Adrien is capable of fighting his father - albeit ignorant of it - is with Plagg's powers.

Cat Noir defeating Hawkmoth was necessary not just for his story as a superhero, but as his character arc as a normal boy.

And in "Destruction", this is exactly what happens. Thanks to Plagg's powers, the path to Adrien's freedom is finally paved, in the most gruesome and unwanted manner possible. Adrien might not get the big cathartic show-down with his evil father, but technically he was the one to bring him down.

But we don't talk about that. Except for his one (1) line after Monarch escapes with Ladybug's lucky charm, Adrien never again brings up the fact that his being careless with a cataclysm certainly maimed a man, by precedent (Aeon) possibly killed him. Rather than a story arc about Adrien being afraid of his own powers, it’s only now that he starts aiming it at people when he’s under emotional duress. This could of course have been one hell of a story point if it was intentional, but by all accounts, it wasn’t. When Adrien never again reflects on his having probably murdered a man, or reasons that Monarch is probably fine since he’s clearly still around so maybe a cataclysm isn’t so bad, and he never dwells on his nearly murdering two of his friends, there can’t have been any connection intended here. Moreover: when Adrien is scared of his miraculous towards the end, it’s not about its capacity for normal murder when he’s having a bad day, but its capacity of ending the world if he happens to be akumatised.

Gabriel is likewise disinterested in the cause of his impending disintegration. You’d think the man would feel some kind of special resentment towards Cat Noir and his powers, you could think this was where he’d get to re-thinking his relationship to the two people who are sitting on the keys to solving all his problems. Maybe he’d start doubting himself now, bearing the ultimate testament to his magical hubris. But no. The cataclysm wound is there and it’s a problem, but the reason it happened is completely irrelevant to the man who did this to himself and unknowingly, to his son.

That is almost as mind-blowing as the fact that they really had a straight up patricide happen on screen. Sure, death was never the intention of either of the two parties, and Adrien certainly holds no blame for what happened. But Gabriel must have at least known what he was risking, and even if the soft-hearted Adrien would somehow reason away the gravity, Plagg would certainly now. By its very nature, this one cataclysm drags out and distils a plethora of questions about both Adrien’s role as Cat Noir, about Gabriel’s vision of himself and his goals, and about their relationship not as father and son, but as villain and hero. The gruesome narrative irony looming over all this is in that regard just the icing on the cake.

There is certainly an Oedipal layer to the drama of Gabriel and Adrien, though the often more scandalous incestuous angle is considerably downplayed here. Even so: By the denouement of S5, Adrien has successfully killed his father and set up a home with his mother. That really happened, but we’re sure not going to investigate how this influenced the relationship between two nemesis, between father and son, between Adrien and his kwami.

The cataclysm in “Destruction” turned Adrien from anguished shoujo love interest to the hero of a greek tragedy, but the show is dead set on pretending that it didn’t.

VI. SO THEN WHAT WAS THE POINT

In isolation, "Destruction" comes across as weird more than anything. It's named after Adrien's kwami, it spends an inordinate amount of screentime on Adrien's father, it reaches back to Adrien's perhaps most defining moment as Cat Noir as it fundamentally changes the game between our heroes and our villains as one of them is finally dealt a damaging blow - which in turn sets Adrien's life down a path towards tragedy that must be interfered with for him to have a happy ending by the end of the season.

And yet, Adrien is a peripheral presence in it. Marinette and Gabriel dominate the screentime, Alya and the kwamis are consistently present as the thematic chorus at their respective sides throughout, the episode plays its events twice in order to make it clear that Ladybug is too clever for Monarch's miraculous, the emotional arcs that are followed are the follow-up on where Marinette and Alya stand after the disaster in "Strike Back" as well as Gabriel's renewed vigour. Adrien's only contribution to the episode is to follow Ladybug's instructions and to make clear that his relationship with his father is still awkward. The episode depicts probably THE most important event of the show, but this event is treated almost as an afterthought, and the horrors of it are confined to one (1) line of dialogue from Cat Noir.

The only thing in “Destruction” that is brought up in later episodes is that Gabriel is now actively dying. If they wanted for Gabriel to live on a countdown for his date with the grim reaper, there were countless other ways about it: Have it be his use of too many miraculous which backfires, have him having used the peacock before it was fixed, have it be too much evil on the hands of Nooroo, have him get a serious call from his doctor, have him screw up Tomoe's machinery, have him develop a drug problem. This is a fictional narrative; its twists and turns are absolutely in the hands of the writers, teenage girls being irredeemable or not. It was never vital that this happened by cataclysm specifically.

So what was the point, then? Did we truly turn our magical girl show into a Greek tragedy for the shocked pikachu faces only?

The one thing I somehow haven't seen people bring up, is that "Destruction" makes it impossible for Adrien to learn Monarch's identity. According to the writers themselves, the reason lies in two of the other episodes named after him: "Cat Blanc" and "Ephemeral", wherein he learns his father's identity and is promptly akumatised. This is of course bullshit: both these cases relied not on Adrien learning his father's identity, but on Gabriel specifically scheming to traumatise Adrien with both the Hawkmoth reveal AND the fact that he's been living in the same house as his mother's dead body for the last year or two (timeline here is spectacularly contradictory). There was anothing inevitable about this. You're the writers. You could've set up a scenario where Adrien didn't learn about his father's crimes as an act of psychological warfare, and where he'd have the time to absorb it, to grieve and to find support by the time he'd confront him with it. Having every person close to Adrien keep life-defining secrets from him “for his own good” is, by god, not a good look on anyone involved here. Still it’s understanable, at least for those who aren't either adults or gods of destruction.

"Destruction", however, serves as an explanation for the gaping plot hole in the epilogue: Marinette tells Alya, she tells Su-Han. The one she doesn't tell, though?

The partner who was at her side before Alya or Su-Han ever appeared, and stood by her in far worse storms. Because telling Cat Noir the truth would mean telling Cat Noir that he dealt Gabriel Agreste the killing blow, and ain't that a nifty way to ensure that Marinette won't. Because if Adrien does learn Monarch's identity and the truth about his fall in future seasons, Emilie better hide those garment pins.

The truly damning part of "Destruction" isn't so much what the episode itself does. It's what it doesn't do. It's the storylines it cuts short and leaves behind, and it is the storyline it by its very existence introduces, but which the show refuses to touch.

Per title and content both, "Destruction" should be the culmination of thematic storylines from "Cat Blanc", the NYC special and "Kuro Neko". It’s not; it’s not even about Adrien, and Plagg isn’t even present in it. Moreover: its lacking presence on future episodes make it painfully evident that ambitions, there were none. Those storylines were either aborted like Adrien picking up Felix's spyglass in the S4 finale, or the show never did mean for there to be such a thing as "layers" to this story about a boy who becomes a hero to unknowingly break free from his superhero father.

The real reason why "Destruction" is the worst episode of Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir is that it obliterates the most cohesive character arc this show had going for it, and that this was done on purpose.

[lil-oreo-crumbles]

can you discuss the relationship between Toffee and Seth

Absolutely!! I’d be happy to!!

Normally, I see Toffee and Seth being depicted with a relatively positive relationship. However, I don’t and have never really seen it that way.

The full story is under the cut, but the TL;DR is this: Toffee does not like Seth hardly at all. Seth sees Toffee as his own son and loves him to death, but Toffee cannot stand being “fathered” by him. As far as Toffee knows, he never had a father and Seth was DEFINITELY not his father, and gets so upset when Seth refers to him as “son”.

Despite Toffee not being able to stand him, he can and does acknowledge his great diplomacy skills and that he is the best leader for Septarsis. His beef is a lot more personal. He will admit with no hesitation that Seth would have made a great ruler for Monsterkind and is personally angered and offended just like everyone else about Crescenta’s smear campaign.

Toffee also unknowingly bought into a lot of his ideals over the course of his life, he just adjusted his angle and took different actions into trying to solve the same problem.

It’s a mix of frustration yet begrudging respect for him as the man who took him in after his mother’s death on Toffee’s end. On Seth’s end, it’s praise, adoration, and a very fatherly view he has on Toffee, despite how pissed he gets at a lot of Toffee’s actions over the course of his life (i.e., Comet and his whole embarrassing “Bad Boy” phase).

-

AU Story:

For some context, I may need to explain Seth and his relationship with Toffee’s mother in my AU, Mylanie Ambrose of Septarsis, because that’s where their rocky relationship really stems from.

When Seth took his rightful place as the Supreme Lord of Septarsis (he hates the term King), he completely tore apart the system the previous (very corrupt) ruler (who brought Septarsis into its dark age) had been using for the two-hundred or so years he was in charge, and replaced it with his own system. Part of that system involves a rotating legislation of representatives (a council of sorts) every fifty or so years (can vary and there are exceptions). The Septarians would get restless with the same person in power for the centuries they live, so Seth ensures that there are new faces and new voices. No matter how good of a Supreme Lord or beloved by the people be is, he will never put just himself or his sister Zarina in charge of decision making.

With that said, Mylanie, a dreamer who strongly believes in a future of peace and harmony with Mewmankind in the future, joins the council. She is incredibly passionate and a very loud advocate for peace, catching Seth’s attention. The two form a friendship outside of politics and get along, but they are fiercely on opposite sides when it pertains to the Mewman problem. Mylanie wants to make peace with a future queen while Seth thinks war is one of their only possibilities. Zarina is the awkward middleman trying to find a truce between their fiercely opposed sides.

Seth is decidedly a gay man, but because he’s so deep in denial and closeted he mistakes the thrill and passion he gets from debating her as… romantic feelings (whoops) and starts offering his hand to make her the Lady of Septarsis. She always refuses.

Then Mylanie has Toffee. (His real name is Torrence but I’m gonna call him Toffee for simplicity)

So, essentially, Toffee’s exposure to Seth for his entire early life is through the eyes of his mother and the debates she has with him. He kind of sits back and watches the two of them go at it.

Seth is a lot more of a brute who values a good soldier at this point so he (playfully) critiques Mylanie for not teaching her son any defense skills or anything to do with fighting and instead just lets him “read books and frolic all the time”. He also jokingly teases her for how “girly” Toffee looks/acts (the long hair with flowers/flower crowns and his general soft/shy demeanor). Toffee, despite his young age, is very aware of all of this, along with the courting issue Seth still brings up every once in a while. He can get really protective of her.

But Seth absolutely tried to bond with him… and he considers trying to teach him how to fight “bonding”. Toffee’s not really into the whole war (he IS raised by his mother after all) and doesn’t really reciprocate.

When the Solaria’s situation happens and Mylanie passes away, Toffee is taken in by Seth and Zarina permanently. Seth really steps up and makes an effort to form a bond with Toffee, but he’s grieving really bad and Seth trying to make nice really hits him the wrong way.

While Toffee is friends with Eclipsa, Seth eventually finds out and discourages him from spending anymore time with her, but Toffee refuses to listen to him and still spends time with the princess regardless. He sees Seth as trying to take away the one thing he still has in this world. Seth tries to insist that the Mewmans and the world they’ve created are dark, selfish, and cruel, and Eclipsa is no different. Toffee fights with him on this, but it isn’t until the two friends have their tragic fallout that Toffee admits that Seth was right about Eclipsa and he should have listened to him.

Regardless of Seth being “proven right”, this still doesn’t make Toffee like him. During his bad boy teenage years he’s blatantly disrespectful, haughty, and an overall pain for Seth and Zarina to deal with. However, this is actually when Toffee starts to buy into Seth’s ideals. Toffee is unaware of just how much he’s starting to agree with Seth about his stances on Mewmanity, but his specific issue is on the magic they use. (If you ask him at this stage about it he’ll tell you you’re insane for the suggestion alone.)

Despite his bad attitude, Toffee’s natural talent in leadership and combat causes Seth to favor him a lot. Toffee rises the ranks quickly and becomes increasingly popular amongst the troops and the army. Toffee actually (begrudgingly) accepts advice and one on one training from Seth, which adds to his skill set.

But what Toffee HATES is how much Seth starts “fathering” him. Seth refers to Toffee as his son, and Toffee has to keep reminding him that he is decidedly NOT his son and NEVER will be, no matter how much Seth wants to think so. This ties back to Toffee’s lingering frustration over the whole “courting” he used to attempt with his mother.

When Toffee takes a break from the army to focus on studying Mewmans, magic, and their history, (and calming down and getting out of his weird bad boy phase in the process) Seth begs him to rejoin all of the time. He knows Toffee as a great military leader but Toffee spends most of his time curled up in his room reading into the night (✨insomnia✨) or breaking into Butterfly Castle to borrow more books. They hardly interact during this time.

After his time as a historian, Toffee is compelled to rejoin the army/war effort and moves up the ranks to eventually become the general we know he as. When the invitation comes for Comet’s banquet, Seth decidedly doesn’t want to attend. Toffee overhears and volunteers to go in his place. Seth has one rule: No harm is to come to the queen.

This is where I get to the point where he blatantly disrespects Seth’s instructions: He kills Comet. While decidedly NOT a primary or even important reason why he did it, a small very tiny microscopic part of Toffee did it specifically because Seth told him not to, and Toffee thinks he can handle things on his own.

Well… when Toffee returns to Septarsis humiliated with a missing finger, Seth. Is. Pissed. He KNEW this would do nothing but blow up in their faces and refuses to hear any of Toffee’s rationale for doing it, no matter how valid. He scolds Toffee harsher than he ever has before and blows up at him for this. By the end of the argument, Toffee is sick of and through with Seth and right then and there vows to leave Septarsis and never come back. Toffee does just that.

And… yeah. To be very frank, the relationship very complicated. Toffee can hardly stand him, but also Seth is probably one of his biggest influences at the same time. Toffee respects him as a leader of their civilization and as a diplomat, but has been known to forge his own path and blatantly disrespect his orders if Toffee deems his own ideas better (not ALL of them, Comet is the one notable instance of this). They both want monsters to be vindicated for all of the suffering they’ve been put through, but Seth sees Mewmans as the problem while Toffee sees magic as the problem.

I don’t know if this post fully encapsulates the true dynamic. This is an example of me trying to explain a dynamic that would be much better when I eventually show it… not sure if any post could ever do the story justice… but oh well.

But yeah I suggest keeping in tune. This is the rundown of their dynamic but it’ll be better when they actually interact in the AU itself 🤞

[jakowskis]

💖💙💜 owen harper bisexuality masterpost 💖💙💜

i've had this in my drafts for a minute but i figured i'd finish it up and post it today for bisexual visibility day :D

it hasn't cropped up recently, but i've seen a lot of people who've questioned owen's bisexuality over the years and i thought i'd compile all the 'evidence' (although it completely baffles me that we got a show with five canonical bisexual characters and people want to write two of them off as straight / "heterflexible" ?? there shouldn't have to be 'proof' of owen being bi, RTD said torchwood is about five bisexuals fighting aliens in cardiff which means they're all bi, full stop. also, bisexuals should never have to 'prove' they're bi, and in regards to fictional characters, i'm sick of people nit-picking who 'deserves' to be counted as rep and refusing to 'claim' certain characters if they're morally grey or if the fandom simply doesn't Like them as much-)

but i digress.

so without further ado, here's everything i've found that supports owen's status as a bicon :-)

explicit canon instances

➤➤ obviously, we have to start with his gay kiss in the first episode of the show. there's a lot to be said about that kiss, i'm not gonna get into all that here, but i've seen a lot of people say it's not proof of owen being attracted to men, and i wholeheartedly disagree. you can literally catch him smiling very happily after the kiss (and one of owen's few genuine smiles of the series, too). i don't think a straight man (or even a "heteroflexible" man) would beam at another guy who's just informed him that he wants to fuck him. a fair amount of people have also said they interpreted owen calling the taxi as him intending to get away from the couple, but i don't understand how they're getting that impression, because that smile makes it seem very much apparent to me that running away is the last thing he wants to do.

it's also, notably, the first time we see bisexuality IN the bisexual show, which i don't think should be discounted. like, we see owen do something gay before jack does, for fuck's sake. is it a good first impression of how torchwood portrays bisexuality? no. is setting owen up as a more sex-driven, opportunistic bisexual nicely contrasted against ianto & tosh's more romance-oriented brand of demisexual bi/pansexuality? in my opinion, yes. i love that the torchwood bisexuals all practice their bisexuality in different ways. that's very special to me. 'cause it's realistic! real bisexuals all experience bisexuality differently! obviously it'd be a different story if he was the only bi rep, because lord knows we've seen enough of that already, but torchwood makes an effort to show us five different brands of bisexuality, and five different bi stories that largely only exist in the subtext, that aren't the focus of the show, and it's fantastic. it's all i could ever want out of bi rep, honestly, even if it is a bit dated now.

➤➤ the other explicit moment in the show: asking tosh and ianto for an end-of-the-world threesome in sleeper (s2ep2). i've actually never seen owen bi-deniers (fhdskjf it's a conspiracy) even mention this scene. owen literally asks ianto if they can have sex with each other to his face, and he's dead serious when he asks it. that's... i mean you can't mistake that as anything else. like fhdsjkf??

➤➤ next we jump to some of the, i suppose, extended universe content. whether the books are canon or not is debated, but the novel 'another life' features owen playing an online simulation game, and it makes a point to depict owen flirting with someone with a male avatar + wondering to himself if the guy would be down for cyber-sex. [someone posted part of that scene here. for context, owen's also got a VR headset on during that bit.]

➤➤ another instance is on the website, which some also don't regard as canon, but, i mean, i don't know who worked on the things we see on that site, but obviously they got their information from somewhere. they probably consulted with the writers on the show, or at the very least got notes on what things to touch on. anyway, there's a portion of the site where you can find a 'background check' on owen, and it's just a collection of messages from some ex-lovers of his. one of them is a man.

again, some people disregard the canon validity of the website, but the way i see it, the information on this site was released while the show was airing for fans to look at and to gain further insight on the characters. one of the things they felt a need to tell us about owen, important enough to be featured in his background (wayyy before the katie plot was developed), was that he wasn't just interested in women. personally, i regard that as canon. you can find this here. and even if you wanna say fragments jossed this background, it doesn't joss his, like... identity.

next we have things said by russell t. davies himself + by burn gorman (owen's actor)

➤➤ again, RTD (who's torchwood's creator, but i'm assuming everyone reading this knows that) explicitly described torchwood as "a bunch of bisexuals living under cardiff and fighting aliens". that's not ambiguous. [i don't have a direct source for this quote, it was apparently said on the dvd extras.]

burn's comments on owen's sexuality include...

➤➤ (when asked who owen fancies) "Owen's pretty cocky, he'll try it on with whoever comes along." [x] and yes, this is vague, but vagueness is often interpreted as proof of bisexuality. (for example, in the pacific rim dvd features, newt's bio stating he was interested in "whoever will take him" was widely interpreted by the fandom as him being bi.)

➤➤ (in regards to owen's "let's all have sex" line) "I don't think he [...] thinks about the implications, or whether it's with a man or a woman." [x]

(ok i have to admit, although i absolutely adore burn, i'm not super fond of the way his 2006-08 self would talk about how torchwood handled sexuality*. however! he kind of hit the nail on the head in saying that, even if it's in the context of owen wanting end-of-the-world sex, because my take on how owen sees his own sexuality has always essentially boiled down to thinking he'd be like, "well, why wouldn't men also be an option?" (well, with sexual attraction anyway; i think owen's relationship with romantic attraction is far more complex.) i think he resembles jack in that way; anyone's a prospective sexual partner, if they're attractive and interesting and he decides he wants them, and he's also impulsive as hell, so he doesn't think too hard about gender in the moment if he decides he's into someone. there's not really any hang-ups.)

➤➤ and ofc...

(out of context this could look like he's just jokingly calling owen an alien-fucker, although owen makes his thoughts on alien-fucking pretty clear in countrycide lol, but it was said in the context of owen/andy as a ship [x].)

*if you're wondering what i'm referring to, it's a comment here [x] about how the torchwood team's bisexuality is a result of being in a pressure cooker environment and having a 'wartime mentality', and they just kind of 'take what they can get'. the implication that bisexuality is out of desperation/accessibility rather than attraction is pretty damn icky, BUT i love him lots and he generally seems to be pretty woke these days (+ otherwise has always seemed to grasp why torchwood's rep was so unique and groundbreaking and important) so i'll go ahead and hope that was just, y'know, simple 'being a straight guy in 2008' ignorance. fifteen years is a long time and i have faith his opinions have evolved by now, esp considering he used the word 'pansexual' at a 2016 con [x]. (actually, ok, you caught me, that last bit wasn't super relevant and i didn't need to bring it up, but i just wanted to gush about him doing it because how often do you hear that word out of celebs, especially older and presumably straight ones. and in 2016, too. kinda slay of him, ngl)

aaand finally, some random, non-explicit little things that i think support him being a bisexy king (several of these are goofy and half-serious)

➤➤ in episode 2, they make a point to cut to owen smiling after jack's line about "you people and your quaint little labels". one might argue he's smiling at gwen & carys on the screen, but cutting to him immediately after jack says it very much implies he's reacting to jack's words, and i think it's particularly poignant after, again, we saw him kiss a man the episode prior. (which, another thing - owen's literal introduction features him kissing a man, like that's gotta count for something. if the literal third thing i ever see a male character do ever is kiss a guy, that means something.)

➤➤ and of course, in the same episode, we get "period military is not the dress code of a straight man" .... owen's the only one of them with working gaydar. also what a fruity thing to say

➤➤ speaking of fruity things to say, in s2e10 when they're all watching the old film, owen goes "look at the state of them 💅" and he says it SO cunty for no reason it always kills me fhsdkjfd

➤➤ combat.

➤➤ no, really.

➤➤ bonus: in the combat commentary, it's mentioned that when RTD saw the above scene between mark & owen, he said it was "the gayest thing he'd ever seen".

➤➤ in the three monkeys, a big finish audio featuring owen & andy, owen flirts with andy repeatedly. even if he just does it to be annoying, it's still pretty damn gay. also the pet names... (he calls him sweetheart, sunshine, and tiger. it's half-mocking, sure, especially because it's owen, but there's also a domesticity to it.)

➤➤ and then there's the hope's "you're alive again and you want crisps?!" "be glad that's all i'm asking for" (owen was like 'i will not use this as an excuse to try to sleep w andy i will not use this as an excuse to try to sleep w andy i will not use th') these are the only two audios i've heard with this duo, i'm sure there's more examples in the other two. i know gooseberry literally has owen sabotaging andy's relationship with his gf and that is... woohoohoo.... i'll update this once i get through those.

➤➤ …. this is my personal opinion but i lowkey think he kinda wants john hart a bit when they all first meet him in kkbb hdskjfds. gwen & tosh both seem very charmed by him and they're meant to, it's supposed to be like 'oh, look at jack's ex waltzing in and charming the pants off everyone (ha), and only ianto and jack see through him' - owen isn't given a flirty line of dialogue or even a close-up shot of him eyeing john like the girls get, but if you watch him closely he certainly looks… intrigued by him. i think owen's more of a bi disaster than he lets on.

➤➤ in episode 10, diane notes that owen has "beauty products" in his bathroom. obviously this shouldn't be indicative of sexuality, but how many Straight Men in 2006 were moisturizing lmao. hell, how many do nowadays 😭

➤➤ gwen & owen's dynamic settles into a lovely little friendship in s2 and owen lowkey gives gbf vibes <3 them making fun of the movie in s2e10 together + the cheek-kissing at the end of s2e9… bi besties!!

➤➤ the peace sign he throws up in meat when he meets rhys fdsjk i don't even believe in some of the silly internet jokes abt bi culture but c'mon

➤➤ have you seen his taste in women. diane is soo butch and gwen's a total tomboy in s1. that's bi culture babey!!!! i too like girls when they're boys

➤➤ i already talked about it but the aforementioned scene where he asks tosh and ianto for a threesome... he asks them, like, immediately after they team up and bully him for not comprehending that there's "no phones. phones all broken. anyone there? no, 'cause the phones aren't working." that was suuuch a disaster bi owen moment for me. i too would get a little revved up if tosh and ianto both bullied me at once <3

aaand finally... the biggest Evidence of all....

➤➤ he's a leather jacket bisexual. need i say more

and that's all! thanks for reading!

[credit for the dividers used in this. didn't tumblr used to have built-in dividers? i miss that.]

[itsbeenliketenyearsitsprettywild]

*deep breath* Okay. In that case, buckle the fuck up.

For all I know, there might be canon lore or word from the creator that entirely debunks this idea. If so, please feel free to tell me directly! I love discussion with other fans, and don't take it personally if a theory i back turns out to be incorrect!

(and honestly somewhere along the way I realized I DO NOT have the spell slots necessary to put my full thesis down, so sadly you're only getting the cliffnotes and some shitty visuals I made instead.) But before I get into it, I'd like to put a warning for those tempted to keep reading: This is the sort of pretentious plot twist spoiler that (depending on your tastes) might make the experience of MILGRAM a lot less fun for you just by knowing/considering it. As such, please use discretion before clicking on the read more. But! I don't think it'll spoil anything to state the basic premise.

The truth is deceptively simple: MILGRAM is a work of fiction set up so that us, the audience, get to influence the characters present in the narrative, thus directly influencing everything that happens, via the cast/crew reacting to our decisions according.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if you some of you think I'm joking or wondering how that in any way counts as a theory.

Part 1: A Cosmic Horror Story(ish) by Any Other Name

In which case, lemme shift the spotlight from the audience's perspective of Milgram to the character's experience of it:

While they don't realize it, the characters of MILGRAM are intentionally constructed beings, within an intentionally constructed universe. Which isn't to say that they, as characters, don't have thoughts and feelings. Their lives and experiences and crimes are just as real as everything else around them. But! Seeing as all of that is fictional, that's... debatable, at best.

They were all created (for the purpose of entertainment) by a force/entity that is basically all-powerful within their universe, but is almost entirely passive in nature. Or to put it another way: It's the cast/crew of MILGRAM that makes this whole narrative exist, but they're always gonna stay in the background of the story. The focus is always on the characters and how they deal with all this.

Past the force that created them, there is one other group of entities that exists outside the character's universe. It's these beings who actively engage with them, through means that go beyond the physical. ie; that us, the audience!! We vote, engage in theorycrafting, and talk about the characters to the point where oh shit they might be going a little insane from hearing us, actually.

Part 2: Other Helpful (and Very Shitty) Visual Aids, Without Context

Part 3: "Wait, so that means we shouldn't have been vot-" Lemme stop you there

With all this in mind, the conclusion most people would immediately come to would be "So this really was just the creators redoing the Milgram experiments, and our only ethical option is to not vote at all!"

Which, no.

Though we might largely have the most direct say in how things go down, the creators can still weigh in if we refuse to play by their rules.

For example, where you here when Haruka's 2nd Trial vote went down? Because, while I wasn't, I have seen the comments people posted during and after that time period.

That is to say, people were trying really hard to get him to a 50/50 tie stall, thus breaking the system - it was only right near the end that the poll hard shifted towards guilty.

Something similar (but a lot more shitposty) happened with Mikoto's first trial vote, too; apparently, the unspoken consensus was that everyone wanted Mikoto to be exactly 69% guilty (lol, never change folks). But, guess what? Right at the end - small shift towards innocent. Tragically ending The Meme Dream for everyone involved.

For all that we, the audience, are mostly in control of where things end up, the creators are more than willing to step in if we stop playing by their rules or don't take things seriously enough and shift votes one way or another depending.

Which means that all not voting does is put it in the creator's hands to decide - and, in that case, they could end up making the choice that you don't like.

So, for all it can feel icky for us voters to be C'thulu to the characters, depending on your outlook, trying to influence them can still be pretty important.

[madameaug]

Finish Him || JJK x OC

Pairing: Jungkook x Jennette

WC: 656 (purposefully short)

Context: Jungkook is playing the story mode of Mortal Kombat. After he finishes the story he extends an invitation for Jennette to play with him.

Note: I'm excited for MK 1. (Tanya looks AMAZING and I hope they add Jade too)

"I'm not gonna go easy on you." Jungkook handed Jennette the Playstation controller. Mortal Kombat 11 had just been released, and Jungkook was one of the few streamers who could play it earlier than the rest of the general public.

The past few days, his streams comprised him completing the story and competing in online tournaments. His favorite character by far was Liu Kang. How could he not? He was a powerful Asian martial artist with wicked cool fire powers. It was natural for him to gravitate towards the character.

"I've been going at it for six hours just today." Jungkook tried to warn Jennette. His girl had just come back home from visiting her parents. Taking off her Crocs, she got comfortable on the loveseat. Back in high school, she would play fighting games like Street Fighter with her dad but wasn't a full-fledged fan of the genre. Jennette preferred role-playing and decision-based games.

"I think I'm gonna choose her." Jennette moved the select icon over the character named 'Jade.' She, too, wanted to choose a black character to play with, and Jade looked cool. The staff in her hand, being her choice of weaponry, would be a great advantage over her opponent, who would have to be up close and personal to attack her.

The match begun with the two characters taunting each other. With a swift slide, Liu Kang started a string a combos on Jade. Jungkook laughed cockily as he continued his assault.

Trying not to lose, Jennette started to mash the buttons on her controller. Landing a few uncoordinated hits on Liu Kang. Things were not looking good. Jungkook completed the combo for Liu Kang's fatality to add more salt to the injury. Jungkook leaned back into the couch, watching Jennette's facial expressions. Waiting for her to turn and look at him gloat.

"GG, babes." He stuck his hand out, but Jennette just smacked it away. She knew Jungkook well enough to know that his attempts at sportsmanship were rarely genuine.

Jennette sat up, leaning, closer to the TV. Her hands gripped the controller tighter. "Run that back."

"Don't say you didn't ask. for this." Starting another match, Jungkook demonstrated his skills by stringing combos. His character managed to trap Jennette against the wall. Sparing her no opportunity to counter his attacks. This battle ended quickly, with another win under Jungkook's belt.

Jennette refused to look anywhere remotely to her side. She already knew Jungkook would have that stupid grin on his face. His ego was growing by the minute.

"One more round?"

Jennette agreed, but this time with a plan. She was tired of these humiliating losses. Jungkook was always finding a way to hop around Jennette and push her into an invisible wall. To effectively beat Jungkook, she planned on tagging some of the move lists. Once she entered the new game, she immediately paused the game. Searching for simple combos that she could execute.

Jungkook didn't think much of it. He firmly believed that he could still molly-whop Jennette's character regardless. Resuming the game, Jennette entered the simple combos, finally landing attacks on Jungkook's character. Like an inverse relationship, Jennette's smile grew, and Jungkook's shrunk.

"Are your fingers getting sweaty?" Jennette taunted, winning the first half of the match.

Like the old saying once said, Don't count your chickens before they hatch." Jungkook soon regained the upper hand in the match. Leaving Jennette silent. Jennette should have known how Jungkook would react when he lost. It is the fastest way to light a burning blaze under his ass. All of a sudden, Jungkook became a pro player. Blocking Jennette's attack and using his meter to execute the perfect counters.

"Fuck this."

Jennette didn't even stay to watch the end of the match. Once Jungkook activated Liu Kang's fatality, Jennette had enough. With his hands behind his head, Jungkook kicked up his feet. Enjoying the sweet, sweet, sweet taste of victory.

[queenofapeacefuldawn]

I’m so invested in this Christmas Love Story tell me more

IT GOES WAY BACK FROM CHRISTMAS

(You're getting the story of how we first met)

(For context, my class is divided into Science and Economics students. There are around 17 (including me) science kids, so we're pretty close knit)

Anyway, we had a chem journal due. This is in July, or late June, I think. Nearly everybody forgot about it, we begged the teacher for an extension, she refused to give it. Her terms were clear: Submit a journal that's not complete, or submit a journal after today, and you lose marks.

Now, I was riddled with anxiety. I'm not that good at chem, so these internal marks that I would get from class work were EVERYTHING to me. I ran around class, begging people to lend me their journals, with, "I SWEAR I'll give it back before today ends, you'll also get full marks."

Anyway, I saw a guy just finish his journal work, copying from his best friend. I knew the guy vaguely, so I was like, "Hey can I borrow this k pls thx"

He was like, "uhh yeah sure but that's not mine that's—"

Before he could finish I was gone. Within 15 minutes I scribbled down whatever I had to, read the name on the book (that's how I got to know my crush's name), handed the book back to him, saying, "[name] thank you thank you thank you SO MUCH!!! I'm gonna be always grateful to you"

And he laughs, kinda, and says, "You remembered my name?"

I barely heard it, I was running to the staff room to submit the journal.

[a-wholelotta-love]

Totnt 1938! Episode 5 thoughts!

Spoiler Alert!

Hey! So I am back again with my thoughts coz as mentioned this is a routine thingy now for clearing my head. Also, whoever is reading them knows that it's mostly my boi Rang centred thoughts and a few rare other ones 😂. So yes, let's talk about how we felt about the episode:-

Okay, so first things first, I was a lil sad coz I felt my boy Rangie had less screen time today. I know, I knoww, some of it was because he was disguised as a baby. Oh God 😂 but yeah. This season has spoiled me a bit and I want to see him in every other scene coz last season, I used to have to search for his scenes like looking for needles in a haystack. Can't go through that again Mr writers. 🥺 Okay, done crying.

Finally, Rang and his fox eyes 😍.Him being disguised as the baby and the baby showing a middle finger to the cop 😂 my boy's voice in the background all pissed coz he is feeling all suffocated in that tiny body 😂 I love him. When they took a shot at the baby, that animated baby jump and roll was so hilarious and then Rangie finally there with a babyy hanky on his neck. Gonna cherish that scene.

I loved baby Lee Mi ho and I am sad that we had to say goodbye to her 🥺. Yeon and Shin-ju giving full goodbye speeches while Rang refuses to say anything. Gosh, his fear of attachment kills me. We all know he adores her, he knows he adores her but hell shall freeze over before he accepts that. Lee Mi ho being more open and stating that she prefers the Bandit. Gosh, how happy Rang was about it and his "you are not too bad yourself 🥺". This boy will kill me.

I also like Ryu hong joo, the more I get to know her.. She did irk me at a point of time with how she is incapable of taking a no. But if I don't look at it, I like her character. She is strong, smart and protects her people with a ferocity that's admirable. I am looking forward to seeing her.

I have said this before, saying it again, I want to know what's Cheon Moo-young's story. Yeon was almost as happy to see him alive as he was to see Rang but at the same time, he is also suspicious of him. I really think I am gonna get hurt for him though.

The last 10 mins of the show gave me life. They were my favourite moments. Everyone can guess why 😂 Rang is slowly starting to like Yeo-hee and it's pretty clear. I find them really cute. I loved how a jealous Yeo-hee pretty much destroyed the room and Yang found it cool. 😂 Boy was impressed with how strong she is. And Yeon and shin-ju spying on their dates and deciding how good of a match those two are. 😂 Ah, please don't ruin this for us later. I won't survive.

Now, one thing, one small conversation that I can't help but discuss is when Shin ju asks Yeon if he can actually leave Rang and go. And he mentions that he can not, that Rang would again think he is being abandoned. This topic is something that I have too many strong thoughts about and I won't get into all of them but I just wanna say, what else is Yeon expecting. I love this future Yeon and how much he cares about Rang but I don't get his plan of action. What are you planning to tell Rang and when, this Rang is someone whose last thought of you would be being stabbed by you and then being left for dead. Now, you are here being all nice and if you don't give him any context and up and leave him in a month, what else will he think. He will probably have to seek therapy to try and make sense of what just happened. For all the progress that this season has made, can we please have Yeon and Rang have a heart to heart conversation. Like please. Coz, right now even I don't understand your reasoning Yeon for a whole lot of things. I will make a separate post to rant about that sometime 😅 but hoping that we do get a heart to heart chat.

Look at this sassy motherf**ker. How am i supposed to not simp.

[kibbits]

I know it’s a bit early in the au, but is there some angstsy potential for the BAL!Boys? Maybe a certain fleshy human makes the idiom “Break a leg” true?

Never too early! I don't mind jumping around the timeline wherever! (I'm not much of a writer?? Or at least I have no plans for now. But I love to get questions and go on long rants as I figure it out pff and I'd love to illustrate stuff from any point)

There could be! I think for the purpose of the story, Y/N wouldn't really get anything worse than, say, a nasty sprain or a (so nothing broken or life-threatening. Well. their life being threatened but not ACTUALLY-- you know what i mean fgkljgkdg)

That being said! The AU is called that because management decided to put the boys in the daycare as the daycare attendant.... Without doing any of the work to reprogram/give them the skills and context for their new role. I was thinking the classic of Moon being the one to 'accidentally' (on purpose but. not?) hurt someone, but both have potential honestly

(two angst and a funnier one)

Either Moon came online and, well. He's supposed to be the villain. He's SUPPOSED to be scary! He's the nighttime attendant? Supposed to put people to sleep? Okay! Villain who's annoyed that people are awake and loud and wants everyone to sleep, I can work with that! And having only interacted with STAFF bot co-actors, he overestimates how rough he can be and breaks someone's leg (could be pulling a kid who thought they were clever out of a hidey hole in an absolutely terrifying game of hide and seek, could be a daycare assistant interfering and he thinks he has to 'fight'them)

Sun has a lot of potential angst too if he hurts someone and he's like that's... not supposed to happen! You MUST be fine -- I'm a hero, and heroes don't hurt people! It was an accident! (they weren't calibrated to handle humans because... Fazbear.

They learn on their own, but in the first, 'feral' half, Y/N learns to make it so they don't get manhandled by the boys/don't get in direct contact with them. In the second half, once they're more their own people and they start to be actual friends, Y/N has to convince them that it's okay, they weren't hurt, they're not gonna break the moment they're touched, just don't chuck them around like a ragdoll, and they build up their confidence towards interaction with Y/N and then working on being even more gentle so they can interact with kids

so, yes, very real potential of maiming, but no actual maiming.... of Y/N at least. The boys DO have to mind their strength though and never forget it, cause they're STRONG

The funny one is I imagine that if Y/N gets something like a sprain or like. a papercut. something accidental that they can laugh off, the boys are such DRAMA QUEENS about it!! Sun loudly announcing that to make way for their friend injured in a heroic battle (a blushing and embarrassed Y/N totally 'accidently' smacks him with their crutches on their way past) or wailing on his knees to the first aid station nurse that their friend's ankle needs ice with the same drama as if they were dying

Moon in full gremlin mode picking them up and never letting them go anywhere on their own feet, oh nooo you can't get down on your own? Too bad, I guess you're stuck in this pile of cushions and now you HAVE to stay and watch movies and do other non-dangerous things with them! What's that, management, they can't be paid overtime and you refuse to pay an intern for a work injury? Oh, but the big bad theatre animatronics kidnapped them so it's not like it's on their own term! Guess they have to be compensated and get to take it easy during work! Otherwise I'm making it everyone's problem > : )))

Thanks for the ask!! <3333

[blackjackkent]

how about 8, 11, and 20 from the group questions section of the OC Asklist?

(OC Asks: Put Those Guys in Situations!)

I'm not sure which group you/the prompt had in mind, so we're going with a scenario of all my OCs somehow isekaid into the same situation, because I think it'd be funny. XD

8. Your characters have been invited to a fancy dress ball, and their costumes must fit a group theme. What do they wear?

The group immediately sorts out into three categories:

a) So excited, psyched to come up with a theme: Philip, Riley, Daniel, Dom, Caden, Joan

b) Meh, will do whatever the group deems appropriate: Matty, Jaksa, Randa, Hector.

c) Would rather do literally anything else: Jenna, Adi, Elliot, Hayden.

Group A comes up with a very nice theme of everyone in black and deep jewel tones of each person's favorite colors, super coordinated, gorgeously designed, everyone looking their best. The whole group wears it without complaint, except Joan, who (despite having been super into the planning) decides at the last minute to show up instead in a skimpy spangly number slit all the way up to her hip just to fuck with everyone, and she and Jenna almost get into a fistfight in the entrance hall.

11. Your characters are sharing stories around the fire. What story does each character tell? Whose story is the most popular?

All of them have lots of adventures to share from their respective universes. Some of them are... definitely better storytellers than others. Jenna and Hector in particular flat out refuse to participate, each claiming that they're no good at telling stories. Joan makes up an outrageous tall tale. Most of the others are pretty sincere though not flashy, telling some minor adventure while knowing deep down that there are much worse things they could speak about. Dom tells some hilarious misadventure with incredible detail and has everyone howling.

20. Your characters are trapped in a joint dream or simulation that recreates their greatest fears. They can only escape if each one of them faces their fear. What are these fears? How do they overcome them? Who overcomes theirs first, and who takes the longest?

Oh man. I was gonna avoid writing one out for every char cos I have quite a collection at this point and I knew it'd take forever, but this is pretty juicy and I can't resist indulging myself. Let's see.

a) Jenna> A room full of the burning corpses of her friends. Overcome through major support from the others in the group; oddly enough the only person who is really able to get through to her is Matty, the older marine, who does not try to reassure her that everything is all right, but simply reminds her quietly (hating the words as he says them) that she has pushed through worse.

b) Matty> The blue light of the Reaper hive mind. Faced as he faced it in real life, with pistol shots directly into the source until the way is clear. Everyone is mildly surprised given how cerebral he is in other contexts.

c) Philip> The room is CRAWLING with bugs of all sorts, all sizes. This one is almost a relief after Jenna's corpse room, but everyone quickly realizes that just helping him squash them all isn't the answer. Philip, in the end, sits in the center of the room and makes very unhappy noises while letting them crawl harmlessly around on him, while Hector and Adi sit next to him for moral support.

d) Jaksa> Something very similar to the DAO gauntlet - a reunion with Tamlen, only it's the blighted version of him with darkness pouring out of his face. She tries multiple times to lash out at this vision and the room simply resets, only allowing them passage when she does not strike but instead waits; the bleak vision drifts closer, lays its mutilated hand against her cheek for a moment and then vanishes.

e) Riley> An empty, bleak, blank Hightown mansion, devoid of family, devoid of life. All lost, all gone... The others sit at the table with her, eat a meal, help fill the space with voices again where it has been empty for so long.

f and g) Adi and Dom get roughly the same room, one right after another. Adi's is an enormous Chantry building, full of people all watching her and bathed in glowing light from an indistinct figure in a throne at the far end. Dom's is exactly the same, but no one is there, no one is watching, and the throne is empty. In both cases the place seems to ask of them only that they look steadily at the possibility and then walk forward nevertheless.

h) Daniel's room is bleeding darkspawn taint from the walls, which close in slowly on all sides while a distant young boy's voice screams at him - "You can't die, Father! You can't leave me alone!" Leaving aside his greatsword he smashes the blighted wall open with his own fists, opening a path beyond. Hector, insightful as he is, asks, "The boy screaming. Was that your son? Or you to your own father?" Daniel doesn't answer.

i) Elliot faces down an enormous rage demon, and alone of all the group does not seem surprised, just angry and tired. Without even waiting to consider the matter, he steps forward, slams his staff straight through the creature and then sets off an explosion within it, sending bits of ectoplasm slapping into the walls. "That didn't take you long," Jenna says dryly. "I've had a lot of practice; I fight it every night in my dreams," he answers.

j and k) Hayden and Randa's rooms are also similar - massive, high-ceilinged ornate places full of mocking, laughing voices. Jenna offers to beat the shit out of all the onlookers calling Hayden "knife-ear" and Randa "ox", but neither of them agrees. Randa just points out, in her morose, taciturn way, that it is better not to acknowledge them; the door opens for her as she stalks through the hall looking straight ahead. Hayden, vibrating with rage, says they don't matter, and the way to move on is to prove she is better than any of them ever were. Whether the room agrees or not is unclear, but when she stalks to the dais at the front of the hall and burns a Grey Warden symbol into the wall with magic, the door opens for her.

l) Joan, like Elliot, is greeted by the demon that dogs her - the desire demon that latched onto her when she came to Kirkwall, and that she thought she left behind when she left the city. Astonishing everyone, she - usually so cocky - goes completely blank and almost seems to panic. The demon just laughs. "You don't have it as easy as the others," it purrs. "There is no easy way to face me down, because deep down, I'm not what you fear, I'm what you want." It vanishes, the door opens. Everyone is somehow more rattled by this than anything else.

m) Caden's room is like another of Irenicus's dreams - he faces a blank-faced man that morphs into the Slayer, which scares the shit out of Hector. The only way out is to beat it into submission, just as he always has before within his own mind - but when they kill it, the room resets. The true answer is to hold it down as his friends once held him in a moment of transformation, to wait for the anger to bleed from it until it fades away.

n) Hector's room is, again, something of a relief after some of the past ones. He has many, many things he can think of fearing, but is instead presented with a giant red dragon which opens its mouth to shoot a burst of flame into his face. At first he panics, but, roused by the presence of the others around him, he forces himself forward and leaps onto its back instead. The others follow suit and the dragon leaps into the air and carries them free of the prison.

[aknolan]

I think part of the discourse here really stems more from what kind of interpretation of RWBY's story you take away from the whole thing.

Your viewpoint is predicated on the idea that RWBY must completely prove the gods wrong, or it would be a disservice to the story's themes.

To me, however, a large part of the story is kind of a complicated mix, in that the villains and antagonists are PARTIALLY correct, but the issue is how they twist a kernel of truth into a means of abuse and control over domains that they don't really have any right to claim control over.

The Gods ARE correct that Life and Death shouldn't be treated carelessly, but they are consistently shown to be hypocrites who use it as a means to enforce their power over others.

Adam and Sienna WERE correct about the state of Faunus, but the former twisted the cause into satiating his own bloodlust and petty egotism.

Ironwood WAS correct that Salem needed to be known as a villain publicly in order to better combat her, but he refused to acknowledge that he wasn't that important and was twisted by Atlas' pro-conformity and fascistic culture into believing that he knew what was best for the world, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Jacques WAS correct that Ironwood was becoming as much of a danger to his country, but that was fueled out of self-serving greed and his own gain.

The recurring point that RWBY tends to follow is that the Villains are not people without a point, but that they use the point as a means to enforce unjust control and power over others.

But it doesn't make them completely wrong.

And the honest reality is; I think Penny not coming back is not inherently an incorrect or thematically wrong way of doing things, because ultimately she already PROVED that the Gods are full of shit.

She came back to life TWICE despite being killed.

The Gods have already been proven WRONG.

Her final death is just proof of something else; that even when you do everything right, even when you do manage to defy the expectations and possibilities laid out before you, bad shit can still happen anyways. It's literally what happened with Ozma dying from illness after he and Salem got together.

What happened to her last life was not the result of the story going against it's themes; it was just simply the result of poor choices on Penny's part and plain bad luck. That's it.

And Choices are just as much of a theme in the story, and poor choices or lack of choices are too.

The key is not in proving the Gods completely wrong, but in wresting control away from them so that THEY can't be the ones to dictate terms. They are NOT the arbiters of everything despite what the God of Light believes.

But that doesn't mean life and death will cease to matter. It'll still exist as the tragedy in someone's life.

I don't really disagree with you on like, 95% of this honestly.

I think it's helpful to recognize though, the wider context of the argument. In the simplest form, the fact that I am in that post responding to someone making the claim that Salem was at fault for what happened with the gods. So yeah, my argument there is about how she wasn't wrong for trying to get Ozma back, and Ruby wouldn't be wrong either for trying to get Penny back.

And yeah, life and death shouldn't be treated carelessly, but that's why it's important that this happens in Fairytale Bullshit Land, where Penny's Magic Aura Bullshit Body may have landed. These are very unique circumstances! This isn't gonna end up being a repeatable situation. They are incapable of treating life and death carelessly, and I'm sure that if they manage to bring Penny back with them, there will be a cost.

And the point of the gods has not been refuted yet. Not on screen.

Penny's revival happened off screen, and on the technicality that she wasn't actually dead. She was still on Remnant. Her core was intact, and that's why she could come back. Had she been completely destroyed, she would have been truly very dead.

And the situation with Ambrosius? She wasn't dead.

I consider this cheating death, rather than really being a proper "brought back from dying". Even disregarding that though... it's our protagonists who need to refute the villains.

Pietro revived Penny, team rwby cheated with the staff of creation. But Ruby making the active choice to bring Penny back would be a very clear message that she understands Salem. No moral high ground to keep there, on Salem's original problem with the gods. And when you have an unkillable enemy, that is desperately needed.

I also don't think Penny needs to die to drive home the message you put in bold. Plenty of things went wrong already, like losing both of the relics, and the "one way trip to Vacuo".

Lastly though, as long as the comparison between ruby/penny and salem/ozma exists, the elephant in the room remains as well.

If the comparison holds up... it's reasonable to interpret Ruby and Penny as romantically in love with each other, and then we get back to the writers wanting to avoid playing into the bury your gays trope.

Really though, a lot of what you say about complicated mixes of right and wrong are things I agree with. I also can absolutely see the sort of themes someone could go for with permadead Penny. But I take issue with it on several grounds, including that it feels a lot like fridging (except that the protagonist is also a woman this time, adding some bury your gays flavour). And, you know, I just like Penny and would like to think better of the writers than the fuck-up for her story that is the last three episodes of v8.

And that's just talking about the thematic stuff, not even the allusions or the things that don't add up.